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SPAD VII of Adj. Roger Guillaumot, N3, 1917


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#1 hq_Reflected

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 16:35

Image

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Reference: Jon Guttman - Groupe de combat 12 "Les Cigognes"

DOWNLOAD V3 (updated colors):
http://www.mediafire...30gvwayaxcwaawb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...30gvwayaxcwaawb
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#2 NewGuy_

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 16:36

Really awesome! :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#3 FlyingShark

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 16:44

Indeed, Yes.

:S!:
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You can vote my post up by clicking the green arrow on the right.


#4 elephant

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 17:08

Not a Spad expert, to comment…technically superb though, as always!
Yes for me…
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#5 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 10 September 2011 - 20:33

Hmm…i don't know your source, Greg, but the only one Guillaumot i know in N3 is Roger, not René… :?

His Spad VII was named "Ma Renée", and the stork was all red.

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"Spad VII du Lieutenant Roger Guillaumot en 1917 - La cigogne peinte sur le fuselage est entièrement rouge - Photo Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace du Bourget -
Ltt Roger Guillaumot - pilote de l'escadrille N 3 - Né le 14 juillet 1894 à Paris (75) - Arme d'origine : aviation comme mécanicien à Villacoublay - Brevet de pilote militaire n° 911 en date du 8 mai 1915 - Formé à l'école de Tours - Pau - Avord - Escadrilles F 1 - N 3 - A l'escadrille 3 de 23 septembre 1916 au 1er juin 1918 - 4 citations."

You can find it here: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/escadrille003.htm

Can't find any pict of hole plane though.
I'm pretty sure there isn't many others Guillaumot in this escadrille imo :)

EDIT: i found other document saying Spad VII S420 of Roger Guillaumot coded N°13 fuselage had red stork on fuselage.
About the number 13 on top wing…i'm not sure there is one though (see old pict above). I would say only on fuselage. But maybe you have a better proof than me of that?
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#6 rOEN911

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 20:42

M O R E Weathering? :P Very good as always.
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#7 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:18

Fifi, are you 100% sure that the machine on the photo is S420? I'll check my sources too.

If it is, I'll make the corrections (open side and red stork + weathering) - are you sure there wasn't a number on the top wing? Do you think it was only Guynemer? We can only guess but it seems more logical to have one. What do you think? I'll check my sources.

Thank you for the info!

:S!:
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#8 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:21

http://www.theaerodr...s_serials=17415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/aircraft/se … ials=17415

Here, it says "René". very confusing :?
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#9 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:27

http://books.google....ad s420&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://books.google....ooks?id=-IN7sPh … 20&f=false

White cigogne!
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#10 =Fifi=

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:30

It has to be a typo mistake. I'm 100% sure it was Roger.

Unfortunately, it's the only picture i have of "Ma Renée" plane.
Still searching…

About red stork, you'll find it here: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Societe_SPAD.htm
The list is long, but find Spad S420! —> "cigogne rouge"

About top wing numbers, not many had them imo. It was mainly on fuselage (and top fuselage too).
Check your sources and we'll compare!
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#11 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 11:38

That source also says "René" as well as my book by Jon Guttman, AND the aerodrome site. What else says he was Roger apart from that website?

I found a close up picture of S420 and the cigogne was white/black. and I found another photo too.

I'm also quite positive that most planes had a number on the top wing.
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#12 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 11:41

Good job Reflected. Voted yes ofcourse..
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#13 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 11:44

Image


Btw nice to see the black stains of the exhaust smoke..
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#14 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 11:53

we just concluded that it's a different SPAD ;)
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#15 J.j.

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:01

Both white and black and red stork are correct. The picture posted just above by MrWolf shows us a red stork, but I also have a picture with a black and white stork. It happened that the storks were repainted over the time, their colors changing.
About Guillaumot, it is a common mistake. His name was Roger indeed, and the name "Renée" painted on his SPAD refer to a female person. Maybe his girlfriend?

René is a man name, Renée the name of a woman.

Last thing, about the number of the top wing, you can't be sure, unless you have a photo.
For example, the plane of René Dorme SPAD VII S392 180HP of Sous-Lt René Dorme, N3,April-May 1917 doesn't have a number on the top wing. But Guynemer's has.

EDIT: it's not a different SPAD, it is a repainted one.
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#16 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:05

OK, thanks for the info.

I updated the DL link:

Now it says "Roger" and I also removed the louvers. On page 53 I found a picture that proves that the louvers were removed.

The stains are there in the stock template.
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#17 HotTom

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 16:30

Very nice, Greg, and the attention to detail ("getting it right") is superb!
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#18 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 11 September 2011 - 19:43

Cool we are going ahead! :D

For the pilot first name, if you google Roger (french pages) you'll find it as WW1 pilot on few sites. Nothing for René, except some english sites! So i'm guessing english are making the mistake for his first name…maybe due to the plane name "Renée" ;)

As JJ said, stork color changed with WW1 time line, so it's not really a surprise this plane had the red stork firstly, and the black and white a bit later.
Anyway i prefer the look of the black and white! :D

I still believe this plane didn't have any top wing number. Apart Guynemer one, i never saw an other french one. Top wing numbers were mainly used by americans and british imo.
But i can be wrong ;)
If i was you, i would let the top wing number unless we get the proof there wasn't one…

Anyway, that's a beautiful skin Greg! I love your beige color, as your others.
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#19 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 00:02

Excellent work.
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#20 hq_Reflected

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 13:26

Matt found a website with some very enlightening info on the colors:

http://www.ipmsstock...rofile_spad.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ipmsstock....org/magazine/2 … e_spad.htm

Pessi's regular Spad VII carried typical French yellow finish. Metal surfaces were painted with chrome yellow lacquer (based on lead chromate PbCrO4 pigment), and fabric surfaces were painted with chrome yellow cellulose lacquer with an addition of aluminium powder. The latter mixture (58% of lead chromate versus 42% of aluminium powder) was subtly darker, less vivid and a bit greener than pure "metal" version of chrome yellow. The effect was amplified by the poor quality of aluminium powder which was greyer and less shiny than it is nowadays.

This is lead chromate:

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So I updated all of my skins accordingly:

Image

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Thanks Matt!
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#21 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 13:45

Well the spad has the exhaust on the same place doesn't it.
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#22 =Salak=

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 20:14

Hi,

maybee its for you only marginal…

i dont vote yet… because, (acording photo of tail of this plane in "Les Cigones"by Osprey)

"3" have diferent shape(check upper part of 3circle,

real "S" on ruder was more circular,

and description "spad hispano…etc" was smaller and slightly lower on ruder…

S!
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#23 =Fifi=

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:03

So, no changes for red stork even if we see it on old picture? (we clearly see it's not a black and white stork) and even with Albin Denis text references?… :?
What are you going to decide Greg?
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#24 hq_Reflected

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:06

So, no changes for red stork even if we see it on old picture? (we clearly see it's not a black and white stork) and even with Albin Denis text references?… :?
What are you going to decide Greg?

Fifi, I found a picture of this machine where both the serial number and a black and white stork are clearly visible. It looks like the stork was repainted at some point.
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#25 =Fifi=

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:11

Ok my friend thanks :) Just to know about!
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#26 hq_Reflected

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:22

Well, thank you for your concern. This is what drives us towards perfection. This is the point of these polls.

By the way, shouldn't it be closed already?
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#27 Panthercules

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 16:35

Poll concluded; thread locked.
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