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Gunner Position / Dispersion Mod (updated for 1.025 / D.H.4)


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#161 HotTom

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 15:52

Av, it is what it is and no retraction here.

Demand? Really?

We've discussed this before and I thought we had agreed this was a problem with the AI that can't be fixed by tweaking the settings that are available to the user.

Yes, your new mod makes changes but the gunner is still firing at empty sky, not coming even close to the target and wasting his limited supply of ammunition.

It's not a personal attack. I don't think it's possible to make the traversing and elevation and firing mechanics realistic without access to the AI coding, which needs improvement in many areas.
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#162 gavagai

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 16:09

HT, I just tried out the default AI gunners with the RE8, and I have to say they are worse than with Avimimus' mod.
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#163 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 16:13

Yes, I lowered that setting ;)

There are still some situations where my mod may be worse than the default settings… (a setting that works better in one situation, may work worse in others) and it does lower the overall trigger happiness of the gunners….

Av, it is what it is and no retraction here.

Demand? Really?

Fine then, Sir! I see there is only one way we can settle our differences.

I challenge you to a duel!

Your choice - two seaters or scouts… early war or late war… !

We've discussed this before and I thought we had agreed this was a problem with the AI that can't be fixed by tweaking the settings that are available to the user.

I agree with your basic point - but my mod does make other changes.

I still want 'satisfaction' though… my honour has been impinged :mrgreen:

:P
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#164 HotTom

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 16:43

I still want 'satisfaction' though… my honour has been impinged :mrgreen:

I think you mean impugned:

http://mw2.merriam-w...=0&t=1339173523" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://mw2.merriam-w...er.com/dictiona … 1339173523

Always so close, never a cigar! :mrgreen:

I'm up to my ass in scuba gear here packing for a dive trip.

We'll have to settle this when I return. :xx:

:S!:

HT
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#165 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 17:09

I'll look forward to it :S!:

I've got to leave and go camping/snorkling tomorrow myself…
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#166 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 08 June 2012 - 20:57

The only way i can see this stupid AI gunner story to be solved, is when flying a 2 seater and beeing under attack, jump in the back seat ourselves and just do the job!

But we need a new kind of auto-pilot to avoid straight levels flying, like a "defensive" 2 seater auto-pilot.
In SP, it's just impossible to both fly the plane and fire the gunner!
And that's mainly why i never fly 2 seaters in SP careers…and really enjoy your "ROF gunner 1.025" mod on first page from my scout careers perspective.

To me remains the best improvment you've done for an enjoyable but still hard 2 seater fight ;)
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#167 gavagai

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 23:12

In SP, it's just impossible to both fly the plane and fire the gunner!

It just requires practice, Fifi. You can evendogfight while manning the gunner's seat.
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#168 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 09 June 2012 - 00:25

:shock: i can't fly backward!

What does the full auto pilot in such circonstances?…never tried :?
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#169 catchov

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:59

:shock: i can't fly backward!

Oh yes you can! You just don't know it yet Fifi. It's in the French dna from the olden times.

Attached File  14 Bis - Foto.png   186.86KB   117 downloads
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#170 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:33

Avimimus/Gav:
In the latest 1.025 gunner mod, gunner don't sit back again after using gun…i thought you had solved this issue in previous version :?
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#171 gavagai

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 23:19

No, that issue was never solved. It appeared after the mods-on loading times were reduced. You can cause that problem simply by ticking the mods-on box without having any mod in the luascripts folder.
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#172 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 12 June 2012 - 01:38

Ah, sorry then. I thought you had solved it.
So best is for me to fly 2 seater career "mods off", and scout career "mods on" with the gunner mod.
Though, i don't remember seeing gunners staying up in my scout career "mods on"…
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#173 Avimimus

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:03

FYI - I don't have this problem.
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#174 AussiePilot

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 00:18

G'day guy's, just a quick question.

Is the gunner mod something that should work online in multiplayer as well?

We fly as a (human)team against ai and sometimes notice the ai gunners we are attacking don't shoot back, but then other times they open up at you when you thought you were safe. Then if your flying a two seater, again your ai gunner behind you sometimes decides to go to work and cover your arse, but other times decides to have a nap instead and you get shot down.
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#175 Avimimus

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:09

It might work if the multi-player server is running the mod. However, I am not sure - I haven't tested it in multi-player.

FYI - There are three sets of values which are relevant to reaction times:
- SearchDistance / SearchDistanceMin determines the distances at which the gunner reacts to an enemy.
- MaxSearchTime determines how long it takes for a gunner to react to an enemy coming within reaction range (SearchDistance / SearchDistanceMin)
- FireWaitTimeMin / FireWaitTimeMax determines how quickly the gunner opens fire / ceases firing vs. the amount of time spent lining up the target
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#176 AussiePilot

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:03

It might work if the multi-player server is running the mod. However, I am not sure - I haven't tested it in multi-player.

FYI - There are three sets of values which are relevant to reaction times:
- SearchDistance / SearchDistanceMin determines the distances at which the gunner reacts to an enemy.
- MaxSearchTime determines how long it takes for a gunner to react to an enemy coming within reaction range (SearchDistance / SearchDistanceMin)
- FireWaitTimeMin / FireWaitTimeMax determines how quickly the gunner opens fire / ceases firing vs. the amount of time spent lining up the target

Cheers for the quick reply. Yes we do have it on the server and it's only since the last rof update it started playing up. We have version 1.024 running and updated the criquet ai pilot mod to the most recent version again but will still seem to get poor responce from the ai gunners.

I thought i'd ask the question because everyone seems to be speaking about single player and career mode but not multiplayer, made me wonder if it was even ment for mutliplayer.

We have never had issues with Criquets ai pilots or Gavagais gunner mod, they always worked fine, but since you've been trying the turretcontrollerai mod to help improve things even more we have been getting mixed result… no offence :D , we like the idea of it though. I guess feedback is good sometimes even if it isn't the best news but onward and upward they say.
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#177 Avimimus

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:10

The most recent version (1st post) doesn't include "turretcontrollerai.txt", earlier versions of the mod did. This particular file controls AI gunner behaviours and is particularly delicate (in fact - it is inevitable to get 'mixed results' - which is inherent in AI).

If you want you can try the one on page 15 (or you can simply delete it). FYI, if you are used to my previous mods - you may be surprised by the game's default settings (which it reverts to once the file is removed).

If any part of the mod works in multiplayer - let me know: I'll add it to the readme.
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#178 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 13 June 2012 - 07:45

So best is for me to fly 2 seater career "mods off", and scout career "mods on" with the gunner mod.

Definitely…the gunner seat is completly weird with the latest gunner mod (turret doesn't respond well, when i take the seat), and furthermore the gunner doesn't sit back.
So, for 2 seater career, i highly suggest mods off :( …and forget about attacking ennemy 2 seaters.
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#179 AussiePilot

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:08

So best is for me to fly 2 seater career "mods off", and scout career "mods on" with the gunner mod.

Definitely…the gunner seat is completly weird with the latest gunner mod (turret doesn't respond well, when i take the seat), and furthermore the gunner doesn't sit back.
So, for 2 seater career, i highly suggest mods off :( …and forget about attacking ennemy 2 seaters.

Hi FiFi, your probably aware of this allready but just in case and for the sake of others, the mouse sensitivity settings in the "input" tab can make things smoother when using the turrent gun position, as in you putting your plane in auto level pilot and jumping back there yourself. We have both the Sensitivity and Acceleration set to 1, things run heaps smoother this way. Check my picture attached.

Attached Files


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#180 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 13 June 2012 - 10:05

Yes, i am aware of this tip, thanks!
Weird thing is it respond perfectly mods off (same mouse settings).
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#181 Avimimus

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:50

It is a feature of the mod actually - to represent friction and inertia.
However, I'm glad you can compensate for it in the menu.
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#182 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 13 June 2012 - 20:22

What really bother me, is when we are attacking an AI 2 seater we are sniped in 2 seconds mods off, while flying same 2 seater, our AI gunner can't hit anything!…

Is there 2 different files settings for the ennemy gunner and our gunner? They are obviously not the same!
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#183 Avimimus

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 14:02

They should be the same.

However, some values change depending on the skill level of the aircraft and the mission/waypoint settings. So, that is probably what you are seeing.

It may also seem counter-intuitive, but having a gunner who has difficulty holding its aim actually increases the probability of scoring a lethal hit on an attacker. This is a major problem I've faced - accidentally increasing gunner effectiveness when I make it behave more unpredictably.
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#184 AussiePilot

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 00:11

Well we did some online multiplayer testing of the 1.024 version with the turretcontrollerai file in. It is on our server.
Results are that it works great. The thing is though, people need to understand how it works, the turretcontrollerai mod file as stated above affects the responce time, actions, aiming and seeing distance of the gunner. So if your flying behind the gunner bobbing up and down in and out of the gunners point of view or blind spot he will not get up to attack, this is good if your the attacker.
If you want to observe the gunner shooting back at you, then get close and make yourself seen to him, give a bit of time for him to organise himself and then you'll see him open up at you…you'll soon wish you hadn't.
However, if your the pilot of a 2 seater and you want your gunner to get up and protect you, then you have to fly your evasive manouvers in a way that helps your gunner to see the enemy plane behind you. Once he see's the enemy he will stand up and shoot, if you have an ai on your six he will most likely break off.

Also, mission builders need to realise if they set "waypoint" or "command attack area" priority settings to high then the 2 seater gunners will not defend themselves, allowing you to fly right up to them and blaze away. Settings of Medium and Low will ensure the gunner does his job. Medium setting is the best because the 2 seater will in most cases stay on course for his objective and let their rear gunner do the job of protecting them. Even if he does break off, he will get back on course quickly.

I don't know how single player or career missions are set but if they aren't shooting then there is a good chance that the priority setting is set to high.

If you take the turretcontrollerai mod out and only have the gunner mod in, your basically dead meat.
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#185 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:48

Once he see's the enemy he will stand up and shoot

…but never sit back…

I don't know how single player or career missions are set but if they aren't shooting

They are always shooting, but everywhere but on target…

If you take the turretcontrollerai mod out and only have the gunner mod in, your basically dead meat.

And i like it…you always have to move around, taking some bullets if not attentive enough though, but not sniped.
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#186 Winston60

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:46

I can verify AussiePilot's findings as I was the one testing this with him in multiplayer. It was quite a revelation to verify that the two-seater flights priority when set to high caused them not to shoot at all.

We were fighting against AI two-seaters always and they did seem to eventually sit back down after they lost their line of sight to us. I'll pay more attention to this in future flights.
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#187 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:19

It was quite a revelation to verify that the two-seater flights priority when set to high caused them not to shoot at all.

Ok, i didn't understood that way…thought it was YOUR gunner…
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#188 AussiePilot

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:09

FiFi it is also worth noting that the way 2 seaters and gunners work in single player and career mode are going to be different in some ways than that of multiplayer, because the multiplayer missions are made different and can have other settings affect how they work. As Winston said, we didn't realise some of our settings stopped the gunners from working alltogether. As a mission builder, I am still learning the way some things work, trial and error sometimes…:)
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#189 Avimimus

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 16:58

Thansk for all the info.

So if your flying behind the gunner bobbing up and down in and out of the gunners point of view or blind spot he will not get up to attack, this is good if your the attacker.

MaxWaitTime is the main value dealing with how quickly a gunner opens fire on an enemy coming into its field of fire (eg. the old 'pop up and shoot' trick). This value has been decreased in order to make attacking two-seaters more challenging.

FireWaitTimeMin / FireWaitTimeMax controls how long the gunner waits between firing bursts. The minimum value was decreased.

MaxSearchTime controls how quickly the gunner reacts to the first time enemy aircraft come within its search range. This value was increased to make surprise diving attacks more possible (however, the next version won't contain it).

PositionChangeTime (located in the aircraft gunner files, rather than in the turretAI file) controls how much time the 'change position' animation takes. This is lowered.

Changing the first two values to make gunner more challenging opponents is one of the reasons why they sometimes seem to fire at empty space (they're a little too trigger happy - but I think it is worth it).

If you take the turretcontrollerai mod out and only have the gunner mod in, your basically dead meat.

As a scout pilot? Yes - it is true. In this case the game reverts to default values for the AI.

You might want to try the AI file on page 15 - it is the newest.
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#190 AussiePilot

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 23:45

cheers, Avimimus, but isn't that 1.026 turret file only in alpha stage?
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#191 AussiePilot

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 23:55

Ok, as noticed already the gunner mod is causing issues since the latest game update to 1.026, so we have removed the mod from our server for the time being and all is good to go for 1.026 now.
I'll keep an eye on these threads as you guys find the time to do your thing and if and when you are ready, let me know and we'll do some tests for you if you like. Thanks.
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