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Gunner Position / Dispersion Mod (updated for 1.025 / D.H.4)


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#121 =Fifi=

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 22:19

Avimimus latest gunner mod is just great for me :D (i don't fly in 2 seater seat curently)
For the fighter point of view, result is very impressive and convincing.
Not that 2 seaters are easier to bring down, but at least i'm not sniped at first burst anymore, and i like it :)
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#122 gavagai

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 00:41

I mean to try them out from the observer's position. ;)
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#123 Buster0083

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:31

After a few months of prevaricating I've finally decided to try the gunner AI mod however I'm having problems - as soon as the game loads a mission it crashes to desktop. The game performs perfectly fine when run "mods off".

Troubleshooting I've tried so far, all without success.
- Computer restart
- Mod reinstall
- Earlier version of mod
- Alternative version of mod
- RoF Recovery function

This is the only mod I'm running - are there enabling files I should have installed elsewhere? Or does anyone have any other suggestions? Cheers
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#124 gavagai

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:14

I'm guessing you have an old file in your luascripts folder that is no longer compatible with RoF.

Try this: remove all of the mods you have installed in your luascripts folder, then run RoF mods-on. Does it still ctd?
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#125 Buster0083

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:44

Try this: remove all of the mods you have installed in your luascripts folder, then run RoF mods-on. Does it still ctd?

Reread your post while I felt slightly more awake. Deleted all mods in the luascripts folder and ran "mods on" - still ctd's. I'll try a full uninstall-reinstall tomorrow I think
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#126 RoclorD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 15:11

Did the DEVS saw your mod? Any chances they include something like this? I mean supersnipers without dispersion, and killing you through fuslage and all isn't realistic.
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#127 HotTom

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 15:36

Avimimus latest gunner mod is just great for me :D (i don't fly in 2 seater seat curently)
For the fighter point of view, result is very impressive and convincing.
Not that 2 seaters are easier to bring down, but at least i'm not sniped at first burst anymore, and i like it :)

Again (and again and again :mrgreen:), the only true test of Avimimus mod is to use it while flying a two-seater. Then you can watch your gunner aim at empty sky (instead of the bad guy on your tail) and blast away at nothing.

Sure, it's greater if you're flying a scout and chasing a two-seater because his gunner can't hit you.

But that doesn't make it an accurate model. The "Avimimus Mod" just neuters the gunner by making it impossible for him to traverse and track targets.

It's a POS Mod IMO. It doesn't make the gunner more realistic. It just removes him as a threat.

If you fly a Biff or a Breguet, as I often do, You're going to be looking at the gunner behind you asking "Is he blind? What the hell is he firing at?"

Dumb Mod.
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#128 Panthercules

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:19

"Dumb mod" may be a bit strong, but I'm really not in a position to say as I have not analyzed it carefully. I can say that it might be one you only want to activate (in its current state) if you're flying scouts - I activated it to try it out the other day in my HCL2 career, and it seemed very detrimental to the 2-seaters (3 out of 4 in my flight of Halberstadts were shot down on one mission - the first time I've experienced that kind of slaughter in career mode).

However, that's a very anecdotal result and not exactly a scientific test, so I'm not ready to condemn it yet. I think it's very interesting work and I hope it continues to progress - anything that can improve the AI behavior and thus the SP experience, regardless of where it comes from, would be very welcome in my book.
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#129 gavagai

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:27

The trouble is that it is not possible to make a comparable dispersion adjustment for scouts. Although it is possible to adjust those values, RoF will say you "do not own" the aircraft when you attempt to fly it.
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#130 HotTom

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 16:50

I applaud's Av's efforts (and have previously all the way back to Post #9 of this thread) but his results from a Biff pilot's perspective have been absurd.

What he appears to be trying to tweak is the response time of the gunner in traversing and elevating the gun. The result is the gunner starts shooting long before the gun is pointed at the bad guy.

So, it's not a personal attack. I'm sure he's doing the best he (or anyone) can to improve the situation of sniper gunners. The AI really needs to be fixed by 777, as has been said many times.

But I really don't think nerfing the speed at which the gunner can move the gun is making things more realistic.

I do like Gav's mod that keeps the gunners from shooting through their own plane.

I guess what I find misleading are posts like Fifi's raving about how great the Avimimus Mod is. Because he's only seeing it as a scout pilot.

Well, yeah, if he's flying in a SPAD he's now very safe parked behind a C.V or CL.II, so I'm sure he's happy.

But he needs to take his Breguet for a ride and see if he's applauding when the bad guys are chewing him up and his gunner can't seem to even find them and shoots all his ammo at empty sky instead.

:S!:

HT
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#131 =Fifi=

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:54

Because he's only seeing it as a scout pilot.

Yes, and i'm saying it.

Well, yeah, if he's flying in a SPAD he's now very safe parked behind a C.V or CL.II, so I'm sure he's happy.

That's your point of view…but not mine.
I want something the more accurate as possible, the way i imagine how it could be in those planes during WW1.
And only "imagine", cause i never flew and fight for real!
Avimimus LATEST mod (the one on top of list for 1.024) gave me what i was waiting for: i'm still hitted, fuel/coolant leaks, holes in wings/fuselage, sometimes badly wounded…BUT not dead at first gunner burst.
And that, NOT parked behind the 2 seater. I always try to do not stay right behind (mods off make me forget this place!)
I'm getting hits turning around full speed, never staying sit still, always diving from any place.

So yes, Avimimus gunners are quite good for me, always trying to hit me, when they miss it's not by far, and i find their reaction and aiming quite human accurate. They just aren't snipers, and yes i'm happy with it, again and again, from the scout point of view.
I'm not looking for cheating 2 seaters. I've others things to do, mind you.

I really don't see how 777 could give the gunners more "human" accuracy, even if they try to re-work the gunners. AI will stay AI.
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#132 Avimimus

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:11

Well, I'm convinced that I've actually made the gunners *more* deadly. No matter what changes I make this seems to be the effect.

I guess it is a natural result of making them less predictable and more human like (while trying to keep them from firing at empty sectors). After months of trying to find a solution to HotTom's problem I can't figure out which of my AI variants I like least… so, I'm taking a break and deleting "turretcontrollerai.txt" but leaving the other files intact.

If anyone has suggestions on which version I should use (default, traditional, alternate, or the old "october" version) - let me know. It'd actually be appreciated! :P

I'm simply too close to the editing to be remotely objective…

Can you tell us exactly what are the differences in the gun turrets limits, comparing with Gavagai's ones?
I've notice with winmerge differences for the Gotha, the HP 400 and the Bristol F2B2 and F2B3.
Was it because gavagai turrets limits were too restrictive, or was it because they permit to the gunner to fire at odd angles?

I tweaked the bombers so that the front gunners could fire through very narrow gaps towards the back and I also tweaked the firing angles - that's it. If thre is a difference in the Bristol, I'm pretty sure it is because I didn't have the newest values from Gavagai.
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#133 HotTom

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:34

I guess it is a natural result of making them less predictable and more human like (while trying to keep them from firing at empty sectors). After months of trying to find a solution to HotTom's problem I can't figure out which of my AI variants I like least… so, I'm taking a break and deleting "turretcontrollerai.txt" but leaving the other files intact.

Av, I appreciate your efforts and I've come to believe what you want to do can't be done simply by altering various settings. I think it requires access to the coding.

So, for what it's worth, I already did what you are suggesting: Manually removing the "turretcontrollerai.txt" and leaving the others intact. That, at least, keeps the gunners from shooting through their own airplanes.

I'm not belittling your efforts, I just don't think it can be done with the limited access available.

Thank you for trying, though.

:S!:

HT
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#134 gavagai

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 17:12

It's imperfect, but it could be a good fix. Watching a single AI DFW take out three attacking AI scouts (all in flames) gets old quickly.
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#135 Avimimus

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 22:26

New version for 1.025 has been uploaded (and older versions reorganised).

If someone could let me know if the D.H.4 works - It'd be appreciated. I didn't pre-order this one (not my cup of tea - compared to my desire for an L.V.G, Morane-L, B.E.2, F.E.2 etc.)
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#136 elephant

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 18:28

Neither do I…
Thanks for the update!
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#137 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 22:21

Edit, nevermind.

and thanks for the update! :)
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#138 Panthercules

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:13

New version for 1.025 has been uploaded (and older versions reorganised).

If someone could let me know if the D.H.4 works - It'd be appreciated. I didn't pre-order this one (not my cup of tea - compared to my desire for an L.V.G, Morane-L, B.E.2, F.E.2 etc.)


Hey Avimimus - I think you're doing some good work here, and am hopeful that you can come up with something useful that will work with the new versions.

I'll be happy to "gift" you a D.H.4 if you still don't have one - then you could find out how it works for yourself. Just let me know.

Cheers,

Panther
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#139 Avimimus

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 15:05

New version for 1.025 has been uploaded (and older versions reorganised).

If someone could let me know if the D.H.4 works - It'd be appreciated. I didn't pre-order this one (not my cup of tea - compared to my desire for an L.V.G, Morane-L, B.E.2, F.E.2 etc.)


Hey Avimimus - I think you're doing some good work here, and am hopeful that you can come up with something useful that will work with the new versions.

I'll be happy to "gift" you a D.H.4 if you still don't have one - then you could find out how it works for yourself. Just let me know.

Cheers,

Panther

That is a kind offer. I'm not much of a fan of the D.H.4 (one more fast two-seater) and I can copy the values from the R.E.8 turret (which I have) - so it isn't necessary.

However - I appreciate the sentiment, Thank you. :D
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#140 =Fifi=

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 23:17

@ Avimimus:

Newest version of the Flak mod. This is experimental. It should make Flak less effective against maneuvering targets at close range.

Is it about only low levels AA firing?
Does it affect normal/high level rate of fire?
…cause i don't want to loose the normal/high levels number of AA bursts in mods off, that i find nice.
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#141 Avimimus

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:32

=Fifi=

- Only large caliber Flak is changed

- There may be a longer delay before firing begins (I'm working on this)

- Rate of fire should remain the same once firing begins

- Accuracy is reduced at all altitudes

If you want I can produce a version where accuracy will remain the same. It won't fix the behaviour at low altitude quite as well - but at least it'll be something.
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#142 =Fifi=

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:43

Ah…thanks for reply.
I'm more looking for a mod wich can reduce only the low level firing accuracy (tree top), but keeps all other things unchanged…
I still believe it's a lot more difficult for an AA gun (like truck mount) to hit a low and obviously btw fast target, than an normal/high target mouving slower in the space (even if plane speed is the same, it mouve slower due to the angle of view)

On other note, your last gunner mod is well done to me.
Only little adjustment maybe, would be the fire range distance, meaning they still waste a lot of ammos…when you try to close them with a slow plane (like N17).
For fast planes, it's very good.
Best would be the gunner could identify what kind of plane he is fighting!…but it's a dream :mrgreen:
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#143 gavagai

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:00

Hi Avimimus,

I don't know what you changed with your latest version, but the AI gunners are slaughtering my AI wingmen now. Before it was a bit more even.
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#144 Avimimus

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:37

Ah…thanks for reply.
I'm more looking for a mod wich can reduce only the low level firing accuracy (tree top), but keeps all other things unchanged…
I still believe it's a lot more difficult for an AA gun (like truck mount) to hit a low and obviously btw fast target, than an normal/high target mouving slower in the space (even if plane speed is the same, it mouve slower due to the angle of view)

Unfortunately this is theoretically impossible the way things are currently coded…

However, I've found some work-arounds: Limited elevation and traverse speeds prevent the gun from firing on airplanes that are at extremely close range, while a minimum elevation setting prevents the gun from firing on enemies who are within 10 degrees of the horizon (ie. flying at low altitude and medium range). As a result, the gunners can't easily fire at close range, but are exceedingly lethal at medium range/altitude.

For you: I've attached two versions of the most recent version of the Flak mod. One version has increased accuracy.

Let me know what you think…

Attached Files


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#145 Avimimus

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:42

On other note, your last gunner mod is well done to me.
Only little adjustment maybe, would be the fire range distance, meaning they still waste a lot of ammos…when you try to close them with a slow plane (like N17).
For fast planes, it's very good.
Best would be the gunner could identify what kind of plane he is fighting!…but it's a dream :mrgreen:

What I'd love is a separate gunner AI settings file for each plane/type of turret… It takes a lot of compromises to get the same settings to work across the board.

The range at which gunners open fire and the frequence and length of bursts are stored in a separate file that was removed from the most recent version. However, I do have a new version in the works for 1.026 (which should massively reduce the ammunition wasteage).

Hi Avimimus,

I don't know what you changed with your latest version, but the AI gunners are slaughtering my AI wingmen now. Before it was a bit more even.

Yes - it is a result of using the default AI values and only modifying the turret / dispersion settings. A separate AI mod is in development for release with 1.026…

However, I don't want your wingman to suffer… so I'm giving you advanced access to the newest version (very much W.I.P) ;)

P.S.
I'm also including an experimental version of Criquet's AI patch (which you've been maintaining), which should double the accuracy of scouts… and thus give them a slightly better chance against two-seaters.

Attached Files


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#146 Trooper117

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:52

Brilliant stuff mate!
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#147 gavagai

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 22:22

Very interesting Avimimus! That might make the AI more difficult to fight in general, right? Some might not like it, but I would be happy to have more dangerous AI.
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#148 =Fifi=

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 23:28

Theoretically should double the marksmanship of all scouts.

Ouch!! :o

Tried it in QMB… 3 of us vs 5 ennemies…very challenging! :mrgreen:
In 2 tries of 4, i ended with plane pretty punctured! :shock:
Hum…in career mode, the average survival time might be very decreased…but i will test it in my current N17 and RNAS Tripe careers anyway.
Is it the "old" Criquet AI mod that you've tweaked?
Thanks for trying to give us such interesting stuff.

About the new turret file, i just have to copy it in your very last gunner mod as there isn't any?
(i did it, it seems to work with JSGME))
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#149 gavagai

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 01:29

My first impression of your AI scout changes is that they head-on better than before. I didn't notice any other difference. The idea is for them to be able to hit a non-maneuvering target more efficaciously, right?
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#150 =Fifi=

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 01:54

I didn't notice any other difference.

To me they seem more agressive, and if you're not aware of any ennemy position around you in a furball, you're gonna be quickly bounced.
Before this mod, you could cross many ennemy path while manoeuvring, without danger. Not anymore imo. I like it.
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#151 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 01:58

The idea is for them to be able to hit a non-maneuvering target more efficaciously, right?

That is the hope. If you've done as many tests as I have you realise that the lower level of scout AI is entering formation with the two-seater and then sitting there while shooting just outside of it (and never really correcting its aim).

There is probably a better approach than just doubling the accuracy of AI. However, it would be nice to see 'average' pilots stand a chance of hitting a non-maneuvering two seater… It might be good to raise the skill level of all of the lower level AI (novice, average, maybe veteran), but then limit their deflection shot ability or flight skills…

However, I don't have time for this with the other mods - so it is up to someone else to figure out what the values mean! :D
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#152 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:03

Is it the "old" Criquet AI mod that you've tweaked?
Thanks for trying to give us such interesting stuff.

Glad you like the stuff! :)

It is based on the newer version maintained by Gavagai (hence why it doesn't crash your machine :twisted: )

About the new turret file, i just have to copy it in your very last gunner mod as there isn't any?
(i did it, it seems to work with JSGME))

Just download one of my other mods - and use the install instructions :)
Let me know if you have issues.

All the files go into:
[Insert your RoF directory name]\data\LuaScripts\worldobjects
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#153 =Fifi=

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:47

I had already your last 1.025 gunner mod (wich is VERY well done imo) and i just added the turret file in it.
It works, cause i see a difference.
But i'm not sure i prefer it yet…it seems they can't hit me! lol
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#154 HotTom

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:52

I had already your last 1.025 gunner mod (wich is VERY well done imo) and i just added the turret file in it.
It works, cause i see a difference.
But i'm not sure i prefer it yet…it seems they can't hit me! lol

Well, that's the point I keep trying to make.

Forget trying out the mod in a single-seater.

The only real test is to fly a two-seater and see if your gunner can defend you at all.

I find this one has the same problem as all of Av's previous attempts: The gunner fires at empty sky, not anywhere near the bad guy.

Sorry. Still "Nice try but no cigar."

:S!:

HT
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#155 gavagai

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:10

Yes, everyone knows that AI gunners should have radar lock on any target within their proximity. ;)

I did some tests with a flight of scouts attacking a flight of two seaters, and the big issue that no one can solve is that the AI scouts won't stay at full throttle. Instead they do the porpoise thing where they throttle up and down in a lazy pursuit. The AI is $*^@#$@ broken.
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#156 =Fifi=

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:11

You're right Gav.
From AI scout perspective vs 2 seater, it's not good (whatever mod).
From player scout vs 2 seater (with Av 1.025 - without turret file) it's quite interesting and good.
From player 2 seater vs AI scout with AI gunner, it's not good (mods on or off).

Only a real hard work from devs could sort this out.
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#157 HotTom

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:12

Yes, everyone knows that AI gunners should have radar lock on any target within their proximity. ;)

LOL, of course they shouldn't have radar lock. But why should they be blasting away at empty sky 90 degrees from where the target actually is flying?

I can understand how making it more difficult to track a target, especially under G loads, makes sense.

But why pull the trigger when the gun is pointed away from the target?

That's what all of Av's gunner mods have done.

BTW, I continue to use gavagai's gunner mods, which have nothing to do with nerfing the turret movement but have everything to do with making the angles at which the gun can and should be fired much more realistic (as in: They don't shoot through their own airplane without damaging it, which is what the unmodded gunners do).

:S!:

HT
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#158 gavagai

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:35

Yes, everyone knows that AI gunners should have radar lock on any target within their proximity. ;)

LOL, of course they shouldn't have radar lock. But why should they be blasting away at empty sky 90 degrees from where the target actually is flying?

That I haven't seen.

I carefully watch the progression of avimimus' work and I think it's come a long way. I keep checking back because I get tired of watching a single DFW or RE8 tear 3-4 AI attackers to shreds. That doesn't happen because the AI gunners are too good (they're not), but because the AI scouts are too dumb. In the end there seem to be some fundamental problems that no amount of modding is going to fix.
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#159 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:00

The AI is $*^@#$@ broken.
You're right Gav.
From AI scout perspective vs 2 seater, it's not good (whatever mod).
From player scout vs 2 seater (with Av 1.025 - without turret file) it's quite interesting and good.
From player 2 seater vs AI scout with AI gunner, it's not good (mods on or off).

Only a real hard work from devs could sort this out.

From my own experience - AI work is something of a spectacular challenge. Even if I could code new behaviours, I doubt it'd be that much easier. This is especially true when it comes to making AI attack two-seaters in a plausible manner.

Of course, we can take some consolation from the fact that both scout pilots and two-seater crews were virtually untrained during most parts of the war - so novice vs. novice should be seen as the norm.

Btw. I actually had a version of the mod (2nd release?) which had plausible exchange ratios and was a challenge for players flying scouts against two-seaters. The thing is that it looked stupid from the two-seater pilot's perspective. So it isn't completely hopeless.
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#160 Avimimus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:07

The solution is as simple as the following:
I have a very simple solution - Those who want the default accuracy levels and firing patterns - don't install the additional AI patch (being tested on page 15). Just install the position modifications!

Those who like a challenge as a two-seater pilot - install the gunner AI mod (being tested on page 15).

I can understand how making it more difficult to track a target, especially under G loads, makes sense.

But why pull the trigger when the gun is pointed away from the target?

That's what all of Av's gunner mods have done.

I find that a bit offensive, sir. I demand that you retract your statement - and recognise that the mod makes over a dozen changes.

Furthermore, the fact that the AI doesn't do a sight check before cycling the trigger on and off is part of how the game was programmed - the only change with my mod: The gunner starts reacting faster. In fact, the values leading to this behaviour have generally be shifted downward by my mod (relative to other forms of innaccuracy).
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