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Gunner Position / Dispersion Mod (updated for 1.025 / D.H.4)


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#81 Avimimus

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 21:56

What i really like with your new mod version, is when i circle/loop around the 2 seater (quite fast with Spad/SE5), i see the gunner aiming/following me, even firing but not sniping me right in the head at first burst…

Must be related to your dispersion thing.

Nevertheless, if i sit in his aiming too long, he will kill me and i like that!

Dispersion mainly has effects at medium to long ranges.

That you are probably seeing is more like a result of two changes:
- The gunner AI now initially makes minor errors in judgment, but corrects its aim more often (so the gunner gets more accurate over time).
- The rate of rotation for all of the guns has been hand tweaked. This effects the player as well. Try attacking a BR.14 and then try attacking a DFW - you'll see that the DFW's single parabellum finds it easier to follow a maneuvering fighter at closer ranges.

We are looking for a more "human" gunner behavior, not for an easier 2 seater to bring down :D

Exactly - and not the most challenging AI either.

My goals are: 1) Unpredictable and reasonably challenging for the player 2) A more plausible exchange ratio against scout AI (despite their stupidity) and 3) a dramatic and 'realistic looking' experience.
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#82 Gwanchos

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:43

AV …. just wanted to record my appreciation for your work on this. I installed your latest version last night and will try and have a play tonight and let you know how it goes.

Thanks again
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#83 BADMUTHA

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 14:20

Derp, nevermind.
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#84 =Fifi=

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:06

Avimimus, maybe your gunner dispersion in latest version is a tiny bit too much…
Would be nice to slightly tune it down imo :S!:
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#85 =Fifi=

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:13

Anyone:

Attached File  Sans titre.jpg   323.75KB   295 downloads

- do you think changing this value to +10/+20 will make the Daimler AA not firing at very low levels?

I think it's about the gun pitch minimum :?

Just because i find it completely unaccurate the way it can fire and blow you out at first burst (made 2 tries vs a convoy, jumping from trees to trees full speed - the AA couldn't even see me - and bam!—> :xx: )
AA should not be able to fire you 10m above ground! Furthermore at 200km/h…
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#86 BADMUTHA

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:42

I fought some two seaters with this mod yesterday and Hot tom is partly right, they tend to just spray into oblivion sometimes. But when I'm on their tail and I peek up to get a shot I think it's much better than default, they don't get an engine hit every time but they're still deadly.
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#87 Avimimus

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:43

Hi Fifi,

Yes, a 5-7 degree setting typically works (although it will prevent the guns from engaging ground targets and the guns will still be able to hit aircraft flying almost directly over them). I was working on a AAA mod before I got too caught up in the gunner mod. I'll find the settings and post everything I know for you.

Regarding the aircraft gunners - I need more specific information. When it comes to gun dispersion - are you basing this off of the effectiveness of the gunner, the accuracy of the gunner or the cone/spread of bullets? Also which aircraft and AI levels?

I need this more detailed information.

Thanks,


I fought some two seaters with this mod yesterday and Hot tom is partly right, they tend to just spray into oblivion sometimes. But when I'm on their tail and I peek up to get a shot I think it's much better than default, they don't get an engine hit every time but they're still deadly.

I agree! I spent two months trying to fix the 'spray into oblivion'. It seems like an insoluble side-effect of the way the AI is programmed (with the other changes making it worse). If anyone else wants to give it a try I can PM them with suggestions on what hasn't worked ;)
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#88 BADMUTHA

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 15:47

Doesn't bother me much, they're still deadly in close where I fight them so no problem here.
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#89 HotTom

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:21

I fought some two seaters with this mod yesterday and Hot tom is partly right, they tend to just spray into oblivion sometimes. But when I'm on their tail and I peek up to get a shot I think it's much better than default, they don't get an engine hit every time but they're still deadly.



You guys still don't get it :roll:

The real test isn't flying in a single seater against a two seater.

First time I flew Av's original Mod and my SE5a was killing C.Vs all over the sky, I thought The Mod was the greatest invention since the bread slicer. The rear gunner wasn't touching me. :!: :!: :!:

Then I started to realize: Hey, wait, this is too easy. Waaaay too easy. :oops:

That's when I tried it while flying the Biff and my gunner was shooting into empty space. Nerf-O-Rama! :?

Finding out if the Mod is any good comes in flying the two-seater and watching what your gunner does.

If your are in your Biff or or Breguet and you're getting hammered by a Hun scout from behind because your gunner is shooting at some distant planet off to your right instead of the enemy aircraft, the Mod isn't acceptable.

That said, I've been very busy the past week (being right all the time is hard work :o ) and haven't yet tested Av's latest creation. And it ain't gonna happen today (Super Bowl) but it is on my desktop and maybe this is the week.

:S!:

HT
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#90 gavagai

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:40

Keep in mind that the new AI obstructed vision feature has caused some problems for AI gunners mods off. For example, when a bandit is at your direct 6 the tail obscures the gunner's vision, and he will stop firing. Be careful not to blame avimimus for any behavior like that.
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#91 HotTom

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:46

Well, I have to assume the gunner uses TrackIR and has 6 Degrees of Freedom (DOF) just like I do and can lean from side to side and look around the tail, right? :mrgreen:
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#92 gavagai

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:56

Yes, you would think he would do that, but he doesn't. :roll:
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#93 Avimimus

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:55

The Gunner AI mod does make the gunner faster to react though (so you are no longer given as much of a grace period in which to shoot the gunner, if you've been hiding under his tail). One of the side-effects of this is that the AI starts shooting before it has figured out the location of the enemy under certain circumstances.

Anyway, HT - I'm aware of the problem you've picked up - and yes, it looks stupid. I doubt it can be fixed. However, if you wait until about 10 seconds into the engagement (before passing judgment on the mod), you may find that it is better than before.

*edit* You know what. It isn't fixed from the observers point of view. I made this release because I was tired of running 12+ test missions for every value tweak and wanted to release an improved version. But, I'll make one more attempt to solve this problem.
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#94 =Fifi=

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 19:46

Hi Fifi,

Yes, a 5-7 degree setting typically works (although it will prevent the guns from engaging ground targets and the guns will still be able to hit aircraft flying almost directly over them). I was working on a AAA mod before I got too caught up in the gunner mod. I'll find the settings and post everything I know for you.

Regarding the aircraft gunners - I need more specific information. When it comes to gun dispersion - are you basing this off of the effectiveness of the gunner, the accuracy of the gunner or the cone/spread of bullets? Also which aircraft and AI levels?

I need this more detailed information.

That's good start. I'll try to set AA truck 7 degree for minimum pitch and see if i'm able to approach convoy from tree top full speed.
If it works, i'll set all AA, even 77mm and 13pdr fixed spots, to this value.

I'm sure in real, a pilot could surprise an AA flying very low very fast.
Only machine guns AA could be fast enough to follow such fast top trees target, imo :)


About gunner, from my scout, he is able to follow/aim at me pretty fast enough. That's good.
He is firing, but many times it seems he is way off (dozen meters away). That said, i don't stand here to get killed! :mrgreen:
On other hand, same 2 seater badly hitted my AI mate, wich isn't as fast as me to avoid the burst…
So i might be nitpicking too much, asking for a bit of more gunner precision! :D

It was Spad vs DFW, and i don't know the gunner skill level as it was in career mode.
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#95 =Fifi=

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:22

Ok, made a test in career with the value to 7 for minimum pitch…and here the result:

Attached File  2012_2_5__21_5_22.jpg   206.55KB   237 downloads

The AA truck is still firing very very low :(
AA explosion in the red circle…
Really don't know what value could make him firing only higher.
Ok, i'm not really flying top trees, but the AA burst is exploding lower than trees!

Also i noticed on my recording, the AA truck is moving quite weird way.
He is moving very fast for short time to catch up the convoy…then very long time to turn gun while convoy is moving away…and then full speed to catch up again.
He is also passing through other trucks! lol

EDIT: Though, something may have changed with the new 7 value, cause i was able to destroy the all convoy + AA truck, and an other AA truck on other place…for first time.
Don't know what have been changed, but not the firing height…
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#96 =Fifi=

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 00:26

Changing the min pitch value doesn't work at all. I tried -15 to 70 (!) and AA still the same.
I give up for now.
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#97 HotTom

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 00:45

Tried Av's New Mod in my Biff FIII.

Went after ground targets in Fly Now.

My gunner sprayed bullets everywhere but at the targets.

He didn't seem to care whether he had his sights on anything, just blasted away at empty ground nowhere near the bad guys (the default gunner isn't terribly accurate on ground targets, either, but at least he's hitting in their general location in tight groups).

Sorry but: No Sale.

Over-Nerfed again.

Version 3? :mrgreen:
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#98 =Fifi=

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:37

I think we need a gunner mod when flying 2 seaters, and an other one (this one) when flying scouts.
The same mod can't apparently do both fine…

Flying scout, it's very well done, finally. Been shot down (had to emergency land) by a DFW gunner very "human" doing imo, after 3 passes.
I'm sure now it's AI DFW skill related. Most of them are quite ok to bring down (low ranks apparently), but better skills are very interesting to damage :)
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#99 HotTom

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:10

I also went after the C.V in Fly Now (same Biff) and slipped in under it and let my gunner bang away at it above me.

The Mod gunner chewed off its right lower wing.

The default gunner always goes right for the engine and usually sets the C.V on fire.

The Mod Gunner's aim seems to be off.

Since I always fly Allied, I've decided to use the Av Mod Gunner on German planes and the default on Allied planes. That way I should get the best of both :mrgreen:
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#100 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:41

Apologies for being confused, but the thread title says 'Updated 2012', the first post was updated in 2012, but the latest version of this mod still is October?

I've already downloaded and got the October mod installed, oh, last fall. Am I missing anything?
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#101 =Fifi=

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:53

Yes, latest version is RoF_GunnerMod_Oct.zip ;)
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#102 Avimimus

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 15:33

Yes, "October" is a version name. The Next will be November… :?

The AI shooting behaviour is a bit odd, but was chosen for reasons of game balance. You can delete it while keeping the other improvments (see the readme). I'm working on alternatives.
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#103 Avimimus

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:04

New version is uploaded. It now has three variants - everyone should be happy (although I doubt they will be). ;)

My big fear is that the gunner system will be completely revamped in 1.024! :o
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#104 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:20

Thanks Avimimus!
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#105 W1ndy

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:06

Yep, I will be putting in some stick time with this to get the feel for it.

I'm not going to try Traditional or Alternative for a good long while until I'm used to the standard settings

Thanks Avimimus
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#106 =Fifi=

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:35

New version is uploaded. It now has three variants - everyone should be happy (although I doubt they will be). ;)

My big fear is that the gunner system will be completely revamped in 1.024! :o

Could you tell us the new features, please?
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#107 Avimimus

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:28

Basic AI changes:
- AI reaction times were increased, while burst length was somewhat decreased
- AI accuracy values were completely overhauled. This was in an attempt to prevent the AI from shooting at empty 'sectors' rather than shooting at the plane.
- The rate at which G-forces throw off accuracy was returned to the original settings (for now).
- AI response distances were decreased (I need someone to test the mod and see if they can exploit this by firing at long range)
- Average AI gunners were reduced in skill level
- Two alternative AI files were supplied

Changes to guns:
- The Lewis guns now take slightly longer to change elevation (this makes them a bit less effective at point-blank)
- The Lewis guns are slightly more accurate. In addition, the rate at which gun dispersion increases and bullet velocity drops was decreased across all guns.
- Jam rates were modified slightly for the Lewis guns
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#108 elephant

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:36

Thanks! :D

:S!:
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#109 flapping-brown

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:52

omg if this is possible in rof then what is not possible.?
personally i hope stuff like this isnt happening in mp online servers ?
if it is it explains a lot of my concerns .
you guys are clever but if its going to affect the mp game then rof is doomed.
perhaps its not possible to change files in mp online someone tell me please. :cry:
feeling very sad
flapping brown
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#110 Avimimus

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:59

There is a "mods on" switch in the settings menu. This protects multiplayer servers.

Don't panic :S!: Also, we can only effect turret mounted weapons… other changes are rejected
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#111 elephant

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 14:12

What a pity… :(
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#112 Der.Mo

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:24

Is this mod JSGMEMod-Enabler compatible if i create the correct folder for the /data file?
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#113 elephant

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:02

No problem at all, with that.
That's the way I'm using it too…
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#114 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 16:35

New version is uploaded. It now has three variants -
Looking forward to it this weekend, thank you!

Are the 3 variants explained in the read me (haven't downloaded it yet, am at work on lunch…), and if not, could you explain what the differences are between the 3?
i.e. Traditional is to the mod or to the game? Alternative to what reference point?

It's funny in MP that you know a human is acting as gunner in a 2-seater because he can't see to fire down through the fuselage and tail. If he knows you're there though, and he's smart (like 'someone' did to me this weekend…) he jumps in the pilot's seat, and then the AI picks you off THROUGH the fuselage with the first shot.

Oh to have a more real AI gunner all the time… And less sniper long shots, and… :cry:
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#115 Avimimus

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 23:36

Hi Bandy,

The Readme file actually has some basic descriptions. I just uploaded a new version with support for the CL.II and the readme file relocated to make it easier to find.

Anyway, to quickly answer your question - there is a default configuration where the AI is a bit too skilled (for my liking), but has some new features. This is automatically installed when the mod is installed.

For advanced users there are zip files with alternative configurations for testing/feedback. The file in "traditional.zip" returns some of the settings to their default values (but leaves some of the other changes intact). My personal preferance is in "Alternative.zip" - it is a bit of an experimental kludge, but it seems to produce the best results.

So, yes - try Alternative.zip - it is my favourite! ;)
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#116 Avimimus

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 00:24

Also - a quick question: The manual says 3 ammunition boxes for the gunner (rather than four for the DFW C.V). I think they may have even carried less sometimes to save weight. Does anyone want me to reduce the CL.II's ammunition load from 1000 rounds to 750 rounds for the next version?
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#117 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:26

… Does anyone want me to reduce the CL.II's ammunition load from 1000 rounds to 750 rounds for the next version?
I say why not try? We'll find out quickly whether they run out of ammo too fast…
Will the reduced load out (one less ammo box) actually have an influence on the FM (ie increased speed)? I doubt it, but you never know…
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#118 gavagai

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 14:15

Doesn't that mean 3 ammo boxes in addition to the one already loaded on the gun?
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#119 J.j.

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:43

Can you tell us exactly what are the differences in the gun turrets limits, comparing with Gavagai's ones?
I've notice with winmerge differences for the Gotha, the HP 400 and the Bristol F2B2 and F2B3.
Was it because gavagai turrets limits were too restrictive, or was it because they permit to the gunner to fire at odd angles?
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#120 gavagai

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 21:31

avimimus changed the HP400 rear gunner positions so that they overlap at direct 6 o'clock. Normally, there is a small blind spot there. However, the change causes the gun animation to be a little bit off.

Looking at the F2b, it appears that he greatly increased the downward arc of the rear gunner. I set it as low as I could without allowing the gunner to fire through his own aircraft parts. Test out both and tell me what you think.
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