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Gunner Position / Dispersion Mod (updated for 1.025 / D.H.4)


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#41 Hvy_Cavalry_Sgt

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:56

Is there a way to reduce the accuracy of the moving gun trucks? Those guys act like they have got some awesome stabilization system, no doubt borrowed by time travelers from the Abrams and Leopard.
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#42 =Fifi=

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:49

Is there a way to reduce the accuracy of the moving gun trucks? Those guys act like they have got some awesome stabilization system, no doubt borrowed by time travelers from the Abrams and Leopard.

Funny thing is i was watching from close this AA truck among a convoy few minutes ago, while i was flying 2500m right upon!
Can tell you with this mod, his rate of fire is greatly decrease, and he almost stop for long seconds before firing. Nothing to do with regular mods off, imo :)
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#43 HotTom

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:51

I did the test, and I can see the difference just by firing a few bursts. Even an old, decrepit, senile curmudgeon could see the difference.

:D

Haven't had time yet. Had to watch two baseball games today. It is almost October, after all, and there are priorities. :mrgreen:

Maybe Tuesday…but I definitely will try it.
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#44 HotTom

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 19:15

Okay, as promised (I am a grumpy old man but I do what I say I'm gonna do :mrgreen: ) , I tried it out with the Av Mod, the Gav Mod and Default.

I could see little difference between Default and the Av Mod. The Gav Mod (which is what I am using these days along with Av's AAA mods) appeared to have the most dispersion of the three.

Interestingly, the dispersion is entirely vertical (or stringing as shooters call it) with the "dispersed" rounds appearing to fall short but not over. Don't know why that is but it isn't unrealistic.

Again, my problem with Av's mod isn't the dispersion. I think the problem is in his nerfing the gunners' ability to elevate and traverse too much. They have too much trouble getting the gun on target but shooting anyway (IMO).

Nice little test mission. Gonna keep it and substitute other planes for testing!

Thx!
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#45 gavagai

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 00:31

That's really strange because I never touched the dispersion. All I did was adjust the sector limits and give the DFW and Gotha the german ammunition types.

What you point out about the traverse time seems important. Are the gunners firing way off target because they would be on target with the faster traverse time?
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#46 HotTom

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 02:50

I think so. There are enemy planes around but not in the same part of the sky where the gunner is shooting. It isn't a totally empty sky, so I assume he is trying to aim the guns at the bad guys.
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#47 Lanzfeld

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:29

Gavagai,

Did you ever make restrictions for the HP400 gunners or did they not require it?
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#48 gavagai

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:30

I worked on it for a while Lanzfeld, but I was never able to get the rear gunners how I wanted them. By default they have a gap at dead 6 o'clock, and I wanted them to overlap. Changing that messes with the gun animation, and for some reason I couldn't re-align it the way I did with the DFW. As for the front gunner (on the HP and Gotha), he can fire right through his engines at attacking scouts. Maybe I should just introduce the changes I made to the front gunners and forget the dorsal gunners? :roll:
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#49 Lanzfeld

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 13:50

A little is better than none. I really like the work you do. So you can tweak the front gunner on the HP-400 (if I am understanding you)?

Thanks
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#50 gavagai

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:02

Sure, I'll see what I can put up. But let's move this discussion to the appropriate thread.

Thanks for the encouragement. :)
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#51 Avimimus

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 23:01

Actually, it is quite relevant as I've been playing with the O/400.

Gavagai, I was wondering if you'd be willing to look over the firing sectors? I've modified the rotation of the gun and the animation values to give an extra 16 degrees to the guns (causing them to overlap).

The main issue is that the gunner's knee interpenetrates the fuselage side. I've shifted the gunner to prevent this, but the hands no longer line up with the gun! This could be the actual reason for our current field of fire values (animation issues). They aren't really noticeable when attacking from a fighter (who is looking at the gunner's hands?) or when playing the gunner. So, I'm planning on offering these values as an option in the next version of the mod.
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#52 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 00:04

Of course I would look at them. Where is the file?

When I tried to change the HP rear gunner's fire to overlap at dead-6, it wasn't the gunner's hands that didn't animate correctly, but the visual orientation of the gun itself.

For example:
[TurretsPos=2]
position = 0.4355, 1.19257, 0.4325
PosMoveArg = 21000


// Joints in orientation order!!!

[Joint=0]
SectorAngleMin = 4.0
SectorAngleMax = 160.0

AngularSpeed = 120.0

AnimationArgMin = 0.512
AnimationArgMax = 0.9444

Normally, the difference between the bolded min and max is the sector angle difference divided by 360.

So, in this case:

156/160 = .4333

and .9444-.512 = .432

For the DFW and every other turret position that orients along the y-axis, the difference is centered on either side of .5, so if the angle divided by 360 is .3, then the animationargmin = 0.35 and the max is 0.65.

The HP gunner is not oriented on the y-axis so nicely, and when I tried to apply the same principle with what I assumed would be an appropriate correction, it didn't work. If you solved it, more power to you!

P.S. You can find my (new) regular sector limits for the gotha and HP nose gunners in the latest version of the mod compilation.
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#53 Avimimus

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 20:31

Thanks, I'll include the your sector limits in the next version.

I was wondering if you could take a quick glance at these values. I've tried to extend them so as to ensure that the AI gunner isn't able to shoot through the fuselage while using the extended field of fire.

// îãðàíè÷åíèÿ ñåêòîðà îáñòðåëà, ÷òî áû ÈÈ íå ïûòàëñÿ íàâîäèòñÿ â óêàçàííûå óáëàñòè
SectorLimits0 = -200.0, -130.0, -2.0, +90.0
SectorLimits1= -130.0, -100.0, -29.0, +90.0
SectorLimits2 = -100.0, -80.0, -36.0, +90.0
SectorLimits3 = -80.0, -50.0, -29.0, +90.0
SectorLimits4 = -50.0, +50.0, -22.0, +90.0
SectorLimits5 = +50.0, +80.0, -29.0, +90.0
SectorLimits6 = +80.0, +100.0, -36.0, +90.0
SectorLimits7 = +100.0, +130.0, -29.0, +90.0
SectorLimits8 = +130.0, +200.0, -2.0, +90.0

Little Update:
I almost released a patch at the end of September, however I decided to hold off until my new computer arrives (which should allow more detailed testing). The new version should be significantly different :S!:
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#54 gavagai

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 22:35

I can't test it out with you also posting your [joint] mins and maxes.

As it is, the default sector limits are very liberal. They allow the rear gunner to fire through the wing and fuselage, so I don't see a reason to extend them.

Again, the thing I'm missing here are the [joint] min and max values, and the corresponding animation figures that keep the gun straight when you're in the "nestle" position.
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#55 Avimimus

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 22:21

Exploring some new settings gents… Tweaking them meant abandoning the September release and going through a couple hundred versions… still tweaking.

Let me know what you think about the new behaviours…
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#56 =Fifi=

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 23:05

Let me know what you think about the new behaviours…

Anything to download for try? :?
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#57 gavagai

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:10

Thanks!

Fifi, the zip is in the original post.
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#58 =Fifi=

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:13

Fifi, the zip is in the original post.

Ok, downloaded!

I guess we have to try it in replacement of your AI gunner mod…and see results!
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#59 =Fifi=

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 08:17

Reading your readme, it seems quite awesome!

Can't wait to try it tomorrow!

I think you made the gunner not firing through planes part, as before ;)

Did you success to make the gunner sit down after finish firing?…cause with the other AI gunner mod, he was always standing up…
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#60 Avimimus

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 14:38

Reading your readme, it seems quite awesome!

Can't wait to try it tomorrow!

I think you made the gunner not firing through planes part, as before ;)

Did you success to make the gunner sit down after finish firing?…cause with the other AI gunner mod, he was always standing up…

The sector limits (keeping the gunenrs from shooting through their own fuselage) are almost all taken from Gavagai's mod…

The gunner will sit down if they can't see an enemy (or the enemy isn't within range). An unavoidable downside of this is that the gunner will sometimes sit down if you are hiding under the tail (Although I've tried to limit this).

The new version of the mod makes it take longer for the gunner to switch between 'sitting' and 'firing' positions. The gunner is also somewhat slower to respond to the presence of an enemy (so if you have a speed advantage you may actually see them changing positions during your attack). The response range of gunners was also made a bit more unpredictable. Finally, the gunner waits until about 25% higher g-forces before sitting down (although accuracy is effected more by turning).
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#61 elephant

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 15:40

Sounds most interesting, I'll try it tonight with my PWCG Campaign.
May I add it as an additional alternative downoad in my gavagai's Mods Compilation thread at SimHQ?
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#62 Avimimus

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 16:36

Yes, feel free to repackage / repost the mod. It might be a good idea to leave a link to this thread (for when I update the release).

With regards to the campaigns - one warning: The AI now takes a few moments to correctly range/lead its target. However, it also updates its aim much more often. So, the AI may initially seem to shoot wide, but subsequent bursts may get much more accurate. You've be warned
;)
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#63 HotTom

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 16:41

Av, the original of your gunner mod was a complete disaster. The gunners aimed away from the attacking fighters.

Sorry but: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

So, thanks, but no thanks.
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#64 gavagai

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 16:43

As if he is trying to get away with something… :roll: Don't be such an a-hole, HT.
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#65 HotTom

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 16:46

As if he is trying to get away with something… :roll: Don't be such an a-hole, HT.


No, Gav, he just produces crap mods.

And, for reasons I can't fathom, you keep cheering.

His work has zero credibility.

That's just telling it the way it is.
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#66 Avimimus

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 17:33

lol Your opinion is quite noted. However, I don't want the mod's thread trashed through fighting between you two. :)

Av, the original of your gunner mod was a complete disaster. The gunners aimed away from the attacking fighters.

Sorry but: Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

So, thanks, but no thanks.

You can always uninstall the mod silly ol' boy.

I actually held up the release for an extra two months trying to deal with the behavior you mentioned - which is basically an inevitable part of how the game was programmed (and already exists to an extent within the vanilla version). I even managed to find a partial work-around!

Of course, at a broader level, you'd probably not be satisfied with historical values - as his opponents would be completely unworthy of his prowess, (not to mention his omniscience - demonstrated in his infallible knowledge about things he has never tried!), we get it…

Hot Tom likes a challenge…
For you - see the attachment :arrow: :P

Attached Files


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#67 =Fifi=

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 00:56

Tom, that's not very kind of you treating Avimimus like that :(

I tested quickly his new mod instead of Gav one, and so far i really like it.
In career mode, i encountered 2 DFW in bad weather, and the fight with the lower one was a bit tough, while my mate was fighting the higher one.
My mate was fuel tank leaking, and myself was lucky avoiding gunner burst.
No more sniping is real nice! I got one, but didn't even see it falling…

Second test was 2 SE vs 2 Gothas in QMB. I damaged one, but after 3-4 passes he managed to hit my engine (i was a bit close though) and get oil everywhere…
I finished the flight watching my AI mate and the other AI Gotha: that was nice to see!…and gunners were acting quite accurately imo.

I think you made a good job on this mod, Avimimus :D
Thanks :S!:
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#68 catchov

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:41

Heck! If Hot Tom added Vegemite to his diet this never would have happened. :roll: Vitamin B is necessary for normal cognitive function.
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#69 Avimimus

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 05:29

We'll maybe he'll be satisfied with the benny hill version… :D

As for me, I'm rather impressed with the new version - all of the values have been changed (more times than I care to remember), but it seems to have come together. Trying to get seven values to apply to all aircraft variants, AI levels and combat situations is no easy task…

Let me know if you find any exploits. I was aiming for an exchange ratio of three two-seaters for two-scouts (while still making it challenging for the player).
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#70 HotTom

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 07:04

Av,

I downloaded your Updated Mod (not the HT version :mrgreen: ) and I'll give it a try but it may be a couple of days til I have some free time.

Unlike Fifi, who tests your mod by flying a single seater against two-seaters, the test to me is to fly two-seaters and see what the gunners do.

In your original Mod, in a Biff, with two Albatros on my tail, the gunner swung the gun to 3 o'clock and blasted away at empty sky. Never once aimed at the EA that were right on my 6. Breguet, same result. Happened every time I tried it: Gunner was over-nerfed. Couldn't traverse the guns.

It simply was not a good Mod. Well, it was good if you were flying a single seater, but, if you were flying the two-seater, the gunner didn't protect the aircraft at all.

And when I did use a single seater against two Gothas, I shot both down without getting hit by the Gotha gunners, hit even once.

Maybe your new one is better. If so, I'll use it.

We'll see.

Meanwhile, I'll be interested to read some others' reviews.

And thanks, Catch, but I'll pass on the Vegemite. I've been to Australia many times and one taste made me glad to be a Yank. :mrgreen:

:S!:

HT
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#71 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 07:26

Don't know what game you're playing Tom but that's not what happens for me.

The AI just don't have a surgical laser aiming their weapons with this mod. AI gunners still behave more or less as they do in vanilla otherwise. (Fixed or flexible.) If anything they're a bit more 'human'. I think your problem is to do with the way AI gunners work with your flying more than how the mod affects them.
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#72 HotTom

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 15:32

Don't know what game you're playing Tom but that's not what happens for me.

The AI just don't have a surgical laser aiming their weapons with this mod. AI gunners still behave more or less as they do in vanilla otherwise. (Fixed or flexible.) If anything they're a bit more 'human'. I think your problem is to do with the way AI gunners work with your flying more than how the mod affects them.

Could you restate that last part in English, please?

We're talking Av's original (haven't tried the new one yet) Mod, which affects only the flexible guns.

Are you flying two seaters and watching what your gunner is doing? Or just chasing them and being happy they can't hit you?

I'm flying straight and level in two seaters, the bad guys are behind me and my gunner is shooting 90 degrees from where they are…and they only do that with Av's Mod…every time…and you think it's my flying that makes them do that?

Maybe the new Mod is better. I haven't had time to test it. If the new Mod is what you're talking about, you aren't making it clear. The old Mod was, again, crap.

And maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.

I know English is not your first language, but do the best you can…. :mrgreen:
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#73 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 15:47

I think you're full of shit to be honest.

How's that for plain English?
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#74 HotTom

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 15:50

Well, the feeling is completely mutual.

Now that we've got that straight, I still don't understand what you were trying to say in Post 71.
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#75 Avimimus

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 16:20

Hot Tom is actually onto something though (in addition to the er… sh…..t)

Allow me to explain. The RoF gunner AI appears to do the following:
Follow a cycle of updating which enemy is being targeted :arrow: Follow a cycle of making aim corrections :arrow: check to see if the target is within a certain cone :arrow: engage a cycle of firing bursts/letting the gun cool.

The problem is that the later behaviours can continue for a while even if the early behaviours are doing something different. So, the gunners firing cycle can work so long as the target cone check happened earlier - the target need not still be visible. Similarly the gunner firing cycle can work even if the aim correction hasn't happened recently. This makes firing into empty sectors an inevitability.

One way to mitigate this is to increase the rate of aim updating, and also to lower the width of the firing cone check (acceptable inaccuracy to start firing). The problem is that both of these make the AI more accurate. Furthermore, the lewis guns are slower moving in my mod and the AI may hardly shoot at all with a narrow acceptable firing cone.

So, yes - there is a problem - it is inevitable without source-code editing and was already in the game (just less obvious). I spent a couple of months looking for a solution. A partial solution was found - although it became very sensitive to value changes (and thus required a lot of testing).
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#76 Avimimus

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 16:20

Sheesh guys…. WWI simmers used to be laid back, happy go lucky types with a rather polite streak… what changed?? Anyway, please challenge each other to a duel or something - this thread is for discussing how to improve gunner AI…
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#77 HotTom

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 17:29

Sheesh guys…. WWI simmers used to be laid back, happy go lucky types with a rather polite streak… what changed?? Anyway, please challenge each other to a duel or something - this thread is for discussing how to improve gunner AI…

Av, I thought that was what I was discussing until Jimmy started throwing feces from his cage. :mrgreen:

I would very much like to see you come up with a realistic and successful Mod (I said that way back in my first criticism of your original Mod and I still say so).

I will check out your new version when I get time (certainly by the end of the week) and post a review.

And I definitely salute your attempts to correct the default gunner AI, which is absurd.

:S!:

HT
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#78 Avimimus

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 19:54

Okay - well just brace yourself for disappointment. One thing you could try doing is increasing the value "MaxWaitTime". This will keep the gunner from starting to fire until the aim is improved. Unfortunately, it will also slow down the gunner's initial reaction time. As a result it will be possible to exploit the gunner by conducting pop-up attacks from under the tail at point-blank.

With the current values, the gunner responds much faster to this tactic (pop-up attacks) and is still reasonably accurate at such close ranges. At longer ranges the gunner's aim will also improve over the first three seconds.
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#79 =Fifi=

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 20:09

What i really like with your new mod version, is when i circle/loop around the 2 seater (quite fast with Spad/SE5), i see the gunner aiming/following me, even firing but not sniping me right in the head at first burst…

Must be related to your dispersion thing.

Nevertheless, if i sit in his aiming too long, he will kill me and i like that!
We are looking for a more "human" gunner behavior, not for an easier 2 seater to bring down :D
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#80 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 20:17

The RoF AI gunners are useless since the last update.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

Free Plank!

 



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