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Gunner Position / Dispersion Mod (updated for 1.025 / D.H.4)


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#1 Avimimus

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 02:02

Hello everyone,

This mod is based on Gavagai's excellent GunnerAI mod and incorporates its sector limits (to adjust the firing arcs of the gunners). I would like to thank him for his assistance. However, this pack doesn't include the decreased tracer frequency mod, the faster bomb detonation mod, Criquet's AI mod or the reduced gunner durability mod. You'll have to add those one your own.

New versions will come as I have time to test, make corrections and further tweak the values or get feedback.

The biggest change for 1.025 is that I've removed the AI tweaks from the mod (pending development into a separate mod). The dispersion rate for the parabellum has also been adjusted and support for the D.H.4 has been added.

If changes are still possible after 1.026 the gunner AI will also be revisited. The next version is planned to decrease (rather than increase) the differences between AI skill levels. This should allow better tweaking to ensure the AI behaves relatively plausibly without being implausibly effective (eg. I aim for a 2/3 exchange ratio in favour of scouts, at average AI settings, this certainly doesn't happen in the sim with default settings).


- Place the data directory in your Rise of Flight directory (so the files should be in [Rise of Flight]\data\LuaScripts\worldobjects\*.*)
- Remember to select "mods on" in the option menu!

Features in the new version 1.025



Basic overview:

- Increased dispersion makes gunners less effective at long range and against ground targets (however, it makes radiator kills more likely)

- Slower turret rotations speeds recreate some of the difficulties of turning the gun, aiming and firing (three separate tasks) from a moving plane and makes close range shooting more of a challenge. This feature also makes different types of enemy gunners more diverse opponents.

- Gunner AI was been radically reworked to be less predictable and more frantic. The overall effect is more human and more frightening. However, these changes have been removed to until after 1.026 is released.

- The goal is to make the gunners more realistic and more challenging for the player to use (generally increasing enjoyment).


Gun mechanics:

- Rotation speeds for the gunner rings were reduced further. The pintle mount of the Parabellum is still relatively nimble. However, the the gunner rings are almost as slow, and the Scarff ring has difficulty tracking targets at close range (especially when weighed down by a second Lewis gun). Compared to previous versions the Lewis gun has increased accuracy (1.023b) and slightly reduced mobility in pitch (limiting the ability to follow fighters at point-blank range).

- The gun axis are more likely to move independently (eg. the pintle's yaw moves first, then the ring moves).

- Gun jam frequencies were increased slightly for the twin Lewis guns (to better match the R.E.8), overall gun jams were reduced slightly.

- All guns have increased dispersion compared to default settings, however these have been reduced compared to earlier versions of this mod (particularly for the parabellum). The effect of burst length on dispersion has been reduced. The Lewis has a higher initial dispersion value, but the the parabellum's dispersion should increase more quickly.

- An updated set of sector limits has been incorporated (courtesy of Gavagai - with a few further tweaks by me)

- Precision of gun rotation was reduced slightly


Gunner posture effects:

- The modifications of the effects of G forces and reaction times to suprise attacks have been removed to the AI mod (see above).

- Gunners take slightly longer to change stances (tweaked for each position/aircraft)

- The O/400 dorsal gunner shifts position more rapidly (but still less rapidly than the original. A variation is available which modifies the animations and firing arcs to allow the Handley-Page O/400's dorsal gunner to fire backwards (This seems to have been possible in reality, given the mounting, although bracing would get increasingly difficult. The main problem with these settings is that the gunner's 3d model either has to cease lining up with the gun animation or tends to bisect the fuselage. This limitation to the animation system may have motivated the programming of the current limitations to the firing arcs)


Gunner aiming:

- Removed to a separate mod. This mod will be developed separately for 1.027



Other changes:
- Support has been added for the R.E.8, CL.II and D.H.4

- Three ammunition drums were transfered from the ventral to the dorsal position on the HP 0/400 (as the positions
were connected in flight).

- For those wishing to reduce gunner hitpoints, please see Gavagai's excellent modification.

Features:

- Traverse rates reduced to 1/2 (allowing reasonable rotation times and simulating coarse traverse)

- Elevation rates reduced to 1/30 (simulating fine traverse and fusing difficulties)

- Anti-Aircraft guns should now prioritise targets which are further away, rather than nearby (if both are available)

- Accuracy is reduced (High AI skills has double, medium has almost twice, and low has 1.5 times more inaccuacy)

- Fire/Sighting correction is slightly less frequent. Aim correction may now be optimised for longer range (not sure of this) and engagement ranges were increased slightly.

- The pause between reloading and resuming turning of the gun was increased in length. Rate of fire was adjusted slightly.

- Minimum pitch angles of 9-10 degrees added for truck mounted anti-aircraft guns (warning - may effect scenarios where they have to shoot other ground targets)

- Blast radii are increased, while air-pressure was decreased (to compensate for the increased radius). This may increase the distance that shrapnel travels. This change is only present when the explosion is caused by the time fuze.

- Effective TNT of explosion reduced to 1/10th of its original value. This change probably does not actually have an effect (pending testing). This change is only present when the explosion is caused by the time fuze.

These changes do not effect anti-aircraft machineguns - They only effect the QF 13 and 7.7cm 1914 Flak cannons.

Let me know what you think,

- Avimimus

Attached Files


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#2 =Fifi=

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 03:40

Wow! Seems very interesting! Thanks for the work and the share :S!:

Unzip it in same folder as before for mods on only?
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#3 gavagai

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:04

Yes, Fifi, same as how you normally install mods.

Thanks avimimus, I look forward to testing this out!

———–

Just had a chance to make a quick test. What a difference it makes to have the dispersion increased! From 300m out you can just weave and bob behind a Breguet and not have much to fear. Even at closer ranges, I can see the effect of slowing down the turret traverse because the gunner no longer hits me as I egress from a high 9 or 3 o'clock attack.

Now if we could just see the dispersion increased on scouts, too, I would be insanely happy.

I'll take a closer look again this evening.
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#4 jimcarrel

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 16:22

Ohhh, this is excellent, thanks Avimimus!
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#5 hq_Reflected

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 10:17

OK, I give up. I'd rather wait 6 minutes to load every career mission with mods=on than to put up with the sniper gunners any longer. I downloaded the pack and I'll give it a try. It only affects gunners, right?
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#6 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:17

I totally agree with most of the items modified, and can verify the historical justifications (at least from book knowledge). Thank you for NOT including the tracer reduction, if I remember correctly I've never seen 1 in 6 tracer loadout mentioned in historical literature nor the 1 in 3 used in RoF, but have seen 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 mentioned. It was a personal choice since many times the gunner loaded his drum or belt, or he should have to check for dinged cartridges. :roll:

Lowering AAA "archie" accuracy for low flying fast aircraft I also agree with; AAA is deadly down low, but what is the impact of the AAA mod on aircraft at altitude? Currently AAA at cloud level is not realistic, and the "ambient" archie at the front is so wildly off it makes me laugh (otherwise I'd cry).

Is there a way to resolve both? i.e. take the sniper out of AAA down low, but make it more realistic at altitude?
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#7 gavagai

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 13:16

I totally agree with most of the items modified, and can verify the historical justifications (at least from book knowledge). Thank you for NOT including the tracer reduction, if I remember correctly I've never seen 1 in 6 tracer loadout mentioned in historical literature nor the 1 in 3 used in RoF, but have seen 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 mentioned. It was a personal choice since many times the gunner loaded his drum or belt, or he should have to check for dinged cartridges. :roll:

I have read 1 in 5 before, and since we can only do 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 (many files are off limits to modding), I went with the latter because it is closer.

One of the disadvantages of the tracer round was that its ballistics were different from a regular fmj round, especially because its mass changed during flight. In RoF the tracer rounds fly the same path as fmj rounds (they are just a graphic that's added on), and they do the same damage as other types of rounds. So we're really getting off easy already, and the 1 in 3 ratio helps make long distance gunnery an every day event.

P.S. I would like to see this kind of criticism in the thread for the mod compilation. Posting it here doesn't help me improve it.
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#8 CAFulcrum

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:12

Using this mod –
I was blown up flying too close to an enemy two-seater from behind and while starting to bank away (my fault), so it does not necessarily detooth the back gunner (which is good). But I have been able to use the low-6 position to make kills and avoid the gunner.

Flak at about 2-3000m seems to go off lower than my plane, flak around 1000m is still deadly, below that the only danger is if you are approaching. The gun traverse is painfully slow… it is nice to be able to 'outmaneuver' the flak, and I am looking forward to restarting my DFW ground attack career. But I wonder if the traverse is realistic, and you can still get hit down low as you come in on the gun. I also saw friendly flak finish off an enemy I was in a heated turnfight with, so it still seems to accurate against maneuvering planes. Still the outcome is a big improvement, even if it isn't the sort of fix that's needed (cruder aiming/fuse timing, no low-alt bursts, barrages around balloons.)

I have also noticed the gunners dying, though it still takes a lot of rounds to kill them. Considering I don't like to get too close to attack a two-seater this seems about right.

Nice overall, I will continue to use this mod. Thanks!
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#9 HotTom

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 04:18

Been using it a couple of days.

Nailed two C.Vs with a Pup in the same mission and lived to tell about it. So it definitely nerfs the rear gunner.

Problem is when you're flying the two-seater. My Biff gunner seems to need glasses. He hasn't hit anything with this mod despite multiple targets at close range. But that's only in a couple of missions.

Will try it for awhile longer and report back.

Thanks for the Mod!

:S!:

HT
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#10 Avimimus

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 17:21

Glad you guys seem to like it :S!:

Lowering AAA "archie" accuracy for low flying fast aircraft I also agree with; AAA is deadly down low, but what is the impact of the AAA mod on aircraft at altitude? Currently AAA at cloud level is not realistic, and the "ambient" archie at the front is so wildly off it makes me laugh (otherwise I'd cry).

Is there a way to resolve both? i.e. take the sniper out of AAA down low, but make it more realistic at altitude?

One forum member (in the thread that gave me the idea for this mod) suggested raising the minimum elevation (so as to reduce the firing cone). However, one still tends to fly over AAA installations (so it could still get an accurate shot).

My solution was to lower the speed at which the gun traverses. This shouldn't effect the ability to target aircraft flying at high altitudes (where the change in degrees per second is less thanks to the distance), but should make it hard to get off a shot at an airplane flying at ground level (assuming the plane isn't being an exceptionally predictable target).

I'm currently exploring/studying the settings (the AAA mod is very primitive). I'm hoping to have a new release next month. Hopefully there will be further improvements in this area.

Flak at about 2-3000m seems to go off lower than my plane, flak around 1000m is still deadly, below that the only danger is if you are approaching. The gun traverse is painfully slow… it is nice to be able to 'outmaneuver' the flak, and I am looking forward to restarting my DFW ground attack career. But I wonder if the traverse is realistic, and you can still get hit down low as you come in on the gun.

The reasoning behind the gun traverse is as follows: Most guns can be traversed fairly quickly if necessary. But, the actual sighting of the gun requires switching from the corse to the fine traverse (usually separate wheels). So, it is easy to "swing 'em guns around", but actually aiming for an accurate shot requires a much slower traverse. Ranging takes further time. This makes guns with a low rate of fire very difficult to use against fast moving targets (unless the target is flying straight at the gun, or is a long distance away and thus doesn't move much).

A similar logic is used for the aircraft gunners - I suspect that it was sometimes possible to traverse the ring mounts faster than this mod allows. However - traversing and aiming/firing would not have been possible using the same body postures. So, there really should be coarse (rotation) controls and fine (pintle/small movement) controls.

Using this mod –
I was blown up flying too close to an enemy two-seater from behind and while starting to bank away (my fault), so it does not necessarily detooth the back gunner (which is good). But I have been able to use the low-6 position to make kills and avoid the gunner.

Problem is when you're flying the two-seater. My Biff gunner seems to need glasses. He hasn't hit anything with this mod despite multiple targets at close range. But that's only in a couple of missions.

One reason for this discrepancy in experiences is that I increased the difference between different gunner skill levels: Ace gunners are not changed much, but rookie gunners will be much more incompetent (in theory at least - this still needs testing).

That aside, the higher dispersion makes radiator/engine kills more likely than igniting the attacking airplane. The gunners are still very lethal at close range - if they are able to get a target in their sights at these ranges the target generally ignites.

However, the slower traverse means that sometimes enemies can't be easily caught in a burst and the higher dispersion makes the guns less effective at long ranges. I lowered the probability of AI gunners opening fire at longer ranges, in order to conserve their ammo and lure players into ranges where the dispersion helps (rather than hinders) the gunners.


I'm interested in any reports of the situation in which different outcomes take place (eg. AI settings). I'm also interested in any reports of ways to exploit the gunners (firing outside of their reaction ranges) etc.

Basically, there is a lot of testing/tweaking that could be done (based on feedback). I'm really shocked that it works so well given the limited testing I did (I must have had good intuition that day?)
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#11 Haggart85

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 22:37

Thoroughly impressed with this mod - I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but downloading this mod and installing it has improved my singleplayer experience ten fold.

I'm not a historian and I don't consider myself very knowledgeable in WWI history, but this mod certainly helps to make things "feel right", imo. A major reduction in the sniper gunnery I was experiencing and definitely makes it so I feel a little more confident when attacking two-seaters.

Excellent work Avimimus, I'll let those with more knowledge make suggestions for changes (if necessary, ha!) but either way, thank you very much for your work!
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#12 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:20

While I am not very interested in the changes you have done to airborne gunners I am very interested in the changes you did to the flak guns to make them less deadly tracking. Can I use just this part of the mod and how?

Thanks for your work.
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#13 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 14:47

Okay…..looking closer at this. I retract what I said about the AI airborne gunners. I do want to try this mod!

It is my understanding that you started with the latest of Gavagais (limit on firing arcs) and added from there the difficulty on swinging these guns?
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#14 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 16:53

Okay I have flown around in "Fly Now" watching the reaction of flak to me. I am no expert but it seems to me the gunners swing those guns at a pace more in line with reality using this mod. I just want to make sure that it isn't too easy to attack balloons now. This will take time for testing but I like what you have done so far!
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#15 HotTom

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:03

The AAA improvement is great! Especially for low alt ground attack missions.

The tail gunner Mod is a mixed blessing (or double-edged sword if you prefer).

If you're chasing a two-seater you are now VERY safe. I've killed lots of C.Vs using avivimus' mods.

If you are flying the two seater, you get to watch you gunner point and fire at empty sky (not a target anywhere near where he is aiming and blasting away) while there are bad guys right on your tail. It's quite overdone and actually looks absurd.

The mod isn't about dispersion. It's about blind gunners :mrgreen:

Hint: Of course, you can turn the mods on when you are flying a single seater and turn the mods off when you are flying a two seater ;)
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#16 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:08

Is there a way to seperate the flak part from the airborne gunner part?
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#17 HotTom

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:11

Yes, look in RoF/Data/Luascripts/worldobjects and you will see there are mods for each in the folder. If you get rid of the ones you don't like, they will revert to default.

Hope that helps.
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#18 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:14

I see that but how do you know which ones are for what? Like turretAI? Is that for planes only or guns on trucks? Things like that.
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#19 HotTom

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:43

I see that but how do you know which ones are for what? Like turretAI? Is that for planes only or guns on trucks? Things like that.


That's the only one that isn't clear. All the rest say what plane or vehicle they are for.

Maybe avivimus will tell us :mrgreen:
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#20 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 18:15

If Avimius does start to answer questions then I would also like to know if the flak part of the mod makes them less acurate as well as slows down traverse speeds.
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#21 HotTom

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 18:31

PM him.
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#22 Lanzfeld

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 19:05

Well I just played a few missions with this mod flak. When I attacked balloons there was almost no flak (just MG fire) from the ground. I think I would like the normal turret speed but the reduced accuracy. So besides the actual flak vehicles there is also a vehicleturretaicontrol or something. Now which one controls the speed and which one accuracy?

Even though the flak guns traverse too fast without this mod I justify that by saying that one flak gun in the game represents 3 or 4 flak guns in reality. This way the game doesnt have to spawn 3 or 4 guns.
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#23 HotTom

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 01:41

Avivimus, I just killed two Avivimus AI'd Gothas in the same mission in my SE5a (Pat Wilson Campaign mission) without suffering any damage.

I now think you've overdone it on nerfing the gunners.

You might want to consider de-nerfing them a bit ;)
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#24 Avimimus

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:34

Happy to be of service gents (and ladies),

In order to remove the AAA mod:
13prdturret.txt
77mmaaaturret.txt
daimleraaaturret.txt
thornycroftaaaturret.txt
vehicleturretaiantiairflak.txt
In order to have just the Flak mod, simply keep these files and delete everything else
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#25 HotTom

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:38

Thanks, Av
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#26 Avimimus

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:41

You're most welcome.


It is my understanding that you started with the latest of Gavagais (limit on firing arcs) and added from there the difficulty on swinging these guns?

Yes, I got permission to include his firing arcs. I've then added a bunch of experimental settings. The new version I'm working on is a further improvement (on my earlier work).

I intend to release an update soon which will overhaul the aircraft gunners using some new settings I've discovered. This update will probably not include an update to the flak mod - which will be released separately at a later time (see below).


I now think you've overdone it on nerfing the gunners.

You might want to consider de-nerfing them a bit ;)
If you are flying the two seater, you get to watch you gunner point and fire at empty sky (not a target anywhere near where he is aiming and blasting away) while there are bad guys right on your tail. It's quite overdone and actually looks absurd.

The mod isn't about dispersion. It's about blind gunners :mrgreen:



Hmmm… I didn't greatly change the accuracy settings. The gunners are a bit less accurate, but they update their aim more often. One thing you might try is raising the skill level for your airplane (as it will raise the skill level of the AI gunner). As mentioned earlier, novice gunners are much worse than the higher levels.

I'm working on the assumption that two-seaters have a about 2/3rds the likelihood of prevailing against scouts.

Two questions, in your opinion:
- What should the kill ratio be between a pair of AI fighters vs. a two-seater?
- How dangerous should it be to engage a two-seater vs. a scout?

(Everyone - please fill free to weigh in on this.)


If Avimius does start to answer questions then I would also like to know if the flak part of the mod makes them less acurate as well as slows down traverse speeds.

The sort answer is yes. The traverse speeds were merely to make fast, low, close, maneuvering targets hard to hit. However, I also lowered accuracy at low altitudes (I think ;) - that is the long answer).

The settings were very experimental and relatively untested. The next version will probably have restricted elevation (as I noticed the guns taking out hangars during tests!) instead of relying on low traverse speeds. I found that one downside of the low traverse speeds was that the guns take a long time to swing all the way around once you fly over them. However, with the low rate of fire and various altitudes involved, it is a bit more difficult to conduct experiments to discover how all of the settings work - so it will take a few more weeks before I have time to decompose all of the settings.
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#27 HotTom

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:57

Where do you find the skill level settings for gunners? Didn't even know it was possible….

Also, the AAA mods are excellent and I think the aircraft gunner mods just need some tweaking.

Looking forward to your update!
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#28 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:41

To be honest, rear gunners are still quite dangerous. They open fire from hundreds of meters and you really have to think twice before you attack. So they're definitely not overnerfed.
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#29 gavagai

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:42

HT, I think what impacted AI gunner accuracy the most was upping the dispersion. Remember all those "50 yards!" stories? Josh Echo can give all the philosophical arguments he wants for why more dispersion would make gunnery easier; the empirical data is in, and it says otherwise.
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#30 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 13:02

I'm very impressed with this mod so far actually, especially since one of my wingmen actually managed to take on a DFW, shoot it down and survive the encounter!

I have been shot down by a gunner since for being complacent but this mod makes it more of an error on my part rather than super sniping from the AI which is a vast improvement from an attackers point of view.

Put me down in the "They're not over-nerfed." column, I think you got it just right.
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#31 Avimimus

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 18:07

The firing ranges are a sensitive area: If they are too long, the gunners will waste their ammo while outside of effective ranges. If they are too short they won't fire early enough (or will take longer to notice the enemy). This could do with testing for each AI setting (if anyone wants to see if they can exploit the AI under the current settings).

HT, I think what impacted AI gunner accuracy the most was upping the dispersion. Remember all those "50 yards!" stories? Josh Echo can give all the philosophical arguments he wants for why more dispersion would make gunnery easier; the empirical data is in, and it says otherwise.

Well, increased dispersion in scouts would have a slight leveling influence: poor shots could do at least some damage, while the best Aces couldn't snipe a target's weak spots (except at close ranges). IMHO, this might be good for multiplayer (as part of the hoped for patch updating the Lewis gun and gun jams).

Right now it is a mixed bag regarding the gunners - if they catch you at point blank they can kill you and/or ignite your fuel tank (or cause your plane to simply explode). On the other hand, at longer ranges a stray bullet often nicks a front mounted radiator (eg. on the D.VII or D.XII) and does in the engine.

:S!:
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#32 gavagai

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 21:17

I would love to see increased dispersion for scouts, too. It's a shame it can't be done.
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#33 HotTom

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 22:17

To be honest, rear gunners are still quite dangerous. They open fire from hundreds of meters and you really have to think twice before you attack. So they're definitely not overnerfed.
Greg, when I can down two Gothas in the same mission with no help from my wingman and no damage to my plane, the gunners are definitely overnerfed.

They were definitely shooting at me but not hitting me.

Are you using Av's mod?

Gav, with this mod, it isn't just dispersion. The gunners are aiming and firing in areas of the sky where there are no targets.

Have you tried flying a Biff with this mod? Look over your shoulder and your gunner is shooting at absolutely empty sky.

Well, I guess that is dispersion of a sort :mrgreen:
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#34 Avimimus

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:56

Gav, with this mod, it isn't just dispersion. The gunners are aiming and firing in areas of the sky where there are no targets.

Have you tried flying a Biff with this mod? Look over your shoulder and your gunner is shooting at absolutely empty sky.

Well, I guess that is dispersion of a sort :mrgreen:

My two cents:
I suspect that this is an unavoidable result of how the gunners are implemented. If you give them a long enough burst time - they keep firing regardless of whether the target is still within the arc.

IMHO, the reason why you didn't see this before is that Gavagai's firing arc restrictions weren't there to limit their aim (eg. through the fuselage). This isn't that bad when there are multiple allies about (you can pretend it is shooting at them), but it gets a bit odd when playing "lone wolf".

The original AI was also surprisingly inaccurate at times - It was just that a well aimed burst was so lethal due to the low dispersion that most of us had no time to notice the more poorly aimed ones.

Anyway, the next version will be even more experimental: I've increased the rate at which the AI corrects its aim, but the AI will be more easily thrown off by maneuvers and have somewhat more trouble judging distances. You'll probably hate it - so keep the testing/feedback coming.

- Avimimus

P.S. Two thoughts: Gotha's were primarily used as night bombers for a reason and you are probably much more experienced and a much better shot than most of the pilots were… please disagree…
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#35 HotTom

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 03:15

Gav, with this mod, it isn't just dispersion. The gunners are aiming and firing in areas of the sky where there are no targets.

Have you tried flying a Biff with this mod? Look over your shoulder and your gunner is shooting at absolutely empty sky.

Well, I guess that is dispersion of a sort :mrgreen:

My two cents:
I suspect that this is an unavoidable result of how the gunners are implemented. If you give them a long enough burst time - they keep firing regardless of whether the target is still within the arc.

IMHO, the reason why you didn't see this before is that Gavagai's firing arc restrictions weren't there to limit their aim (eg. through the fuselage). This isn't that bad when there are multiple allies about (you can pretend it is shooting at them), but it gets a bit odd when playing "lone wolf".

The original AI was also surprisingly inaccurate at times - It was just that a well aimed burst was so lethal due to the low dispersion that most of us had no time to notice the more poorly aimed ones.

Anyway, the next version will be even more experimental: I've increased the rate at which the AI corrects its aim, but the AI will be more easily thrown off by maneuvers and have somewhat more trouble judging distances. You'll probably hate it - so keep the testing/feedback coming.

- Avimimus

P.S. Two thoughts: Gotha's were primarily used as night bombers for a reason and you are probably much more experienced and a much better shot than most of the pilots were… please disagree…


No, the Biff gunners get up from their seats and aim and shoot at an area of the sky where there are no enemy.

It isn't a matter of the enemy moving out of their arc. The enemy never was in their arc and they start shooting. At nothing.

You wanted feedback…this isn't personal :mrgreen:

Re your PS: I think I have said many, many more times than anyone else on this forum that Gothas (from September 1917 onward) were night bombers and they were strategic (as opposed to tactical) bombers and have no business around the front lines. (In fact, without proper maps and targets, they have no business in this sim at all; I've said that, too :mrgreen: ).

But, I fly Pat Wilson Campaign missions mostly – I think they are still a few notches above the Beta Career Mode if you don't mind flying long missions and taking the to climb up to 12,000 to 14,000 feet – and Pat put them in there. And when they're right in your route, it's sort of hard to ignore them. :o

My point isn't whether they should or should not be there.

My point is I attacked two of them, and it took lots of passes to bring them down, and their gunners were blasting away at me, at times the gunners in both planes were shooting at me, and none of them did any appreciable damage to my aircraft (I heard a few hits but no noticeable damage).

Too nerfed.

It's great if you are the attacking single seater. But not if you're flying the two-seater. That gunner might as well not even be there.

:S!:

HT
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#36 gavagai

gavagai
  • Posts: 15541

Posted 26 September 2011 - 16:27

HT,

Here's something you should try. Use the default AI gunner control script in combination with the increased dispersion Avimimus introduced (just remove the AI gunner control script from world objects). Tell us what happens then!
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#37 HotTom

HotTom
  • Posts: 8177

Posted 26 September 2011 - 16:39

Gav, what I have done (and I like to experiment with one mod for a week or two before deciding on it), is to keep Av's AAA mods, throw out all his rear gunner mods and insert your rear gunner mods instead (so they can't shoot through their own airplane).

I'm not convinced Av is increasing dispersion of the bullets. From my experience with his mod, Av is modeling nerfed elevation and traversing by the gunners.

One of the ways I "test" (not at all scientifically; I don't actually measure anything) these mods is to attack the convoy in Fly Now and let my rear gunner shoot at them, because I can see the bullets impacting on the ground.

If there were greater dispersion as claimed, the groups created by each burst would be spread out more. But they're not.

What I'm seeing is tight groups but the groups are nowhere near the target.

That seems to match my Gotha-killing experience as well. I was perfectly safe as long as I was what the gunners were aiming at ;)
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#38 gavagai

gavagai
  • Posts: 15541

Posted 26 September 2011 - 20:25

Here, I attached a file where you can try out the dispersion with Avimimus' mod, and then try it mods off. This is Han's dispersion test mission, and all I did was to change it to have a DFW pointed backwards at the targets (yes, this is the crescendo of my mission making career in RoF). So, jump in the gunner's seat and start sniping away and tell me if you notice a difference.

Attached Files


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#39 HotTom

HotTom
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Posted 26 September 2011 - 20:35

Grabbed it. I'll give it a try.

Thx!
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#40 gavagai

gavagai
  • Posts: 15541

Posted 27 September 2011 - 00:18

I did the test, and I can see the difference just by firing a few bursts. Even an old, decrepit, senile curmudgeon could see the difference.

:D
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