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Fokker D.VII performance by Mikael Carlson


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#41 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:22

You could use http://www.clipnabber.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">www.clipnabber.com to grab it.
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#42 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:28

Anecdotes are worthless because they don't tell you what the aileron movement should be: they can just hint that the current movement is wrong.

This however:

Ailerons have equal movement up and down

is excellent. Thank you! And as Imp says, now we just need to know what the maximum angle is.

Does Womenfly perhaps have access to the information?
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#43 =FB=VikS

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:28

You could use http://www.clipnabber.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.clipnabber.com to grab it.

imho it will had less quality than source.
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#44 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:32

Isn't the current sound from the DVII at biplaner.de? That sounds like a great source, are you thinking of replacing it?

The Early Birds foundation DVII has an aü in it. Maybe you can get in contact with them for sound recordings. There's a lot of footage on youtube, but all very low quality. I hope to go there soon, maybe I can mention it.
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#45 gavagai

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:38

Wow! Thanks Vander! This is huge!

For a long time I have said that the D.VII's roll rate is not its problem, it's the adverse yaw.

:S!:
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#46 =FB=VikS

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:39

Isn't the current sound from the DVII at biplaner.de? That sounds like a great source, are you thinking of replacing it?

The Early Birds foundation DVII has an aü in it. Maybe you can get in contact with them for sound recordings. There's a lot of footage on youtube, but all very low quality. I hope to go there soon, maybe I can mention it.

Yes - its from biplanes.de (long time ago its owner provided us with the samples), but its from ground runs only - we hadnt had external flyby sounds that time.

PS: yet im only thinkin about it (no promises), but as real sounds fan - i whant it to be best and close to real as possible ;)
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#47 =FB=VikS

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:41

For a long time I have said that the D.VII's roll rate is not its problem, it's the adverse yaw.

imho - thats why Mikael uses alot of rudder when rolling.
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#48 MiG-77

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:44

imho - thats why Mikael uses alot of rudder when rolling.

All WWI planes should use rudder when rolling. Their ailerons were not that effective in todays standard.
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#49 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:48

Sounds….

http://www.theaerodr...engine-run.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/repli … e-run.html

Please read the whole thread. Lots of interesting info about the engine and some more video clips.
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#50 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:03

A great clip but very bad for sounds.

It's on an airfield, with planes flying over, and buildings and paved surfaces all around. And the video quality is very low.

It's unfortunate. They should do a dedicated engine run for a sound recording some time.

Vander, what do you say we head up there some time together? :D
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#51 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:10

A great clip but very bad for sounds.

It's on an airfield, with planes flying over, and buildings and paved surfaces all around. And the video quality is very low.

It's unfortunate. They should do a dedicated engine run for a sound recording some time.

Vander, what do you say we head up there some time together? :D

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I wouldn't mind visiting Lelystad when they do another engine run! I don't have serious sound equipment though….
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#52 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:16

How about we just give them a regular visit? I've never been there myself.

Early september there are Fokker days at the Aviodrome, they will be represented there as well. I'm hoping to be there. Be sure to check it out!

(the days before there will be a lot of activities in Haarlem commemorating 100 years Fokker Spin - the Spin itself along with an exhibition will be on display in the St Bavo church several days before, and there will be plenty of activities. Not something to miss!)
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#53 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:22

An article of a Dutch LVA pilot sharing his experience of his first DVII flight, with one of the last DVII's to do service….in 1937, only 3 years before we had to fight off the 109's!

Paragraphs about the rollrate have been highlighted.

I hope this is OK to post:

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/mag1.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/mag2.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/mag3.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/mag4.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/mag5.JPG
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#54 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:33

Great article. I will definitely check the Fokker days in September. I always wanted to pay them a visit one day.
Which day is it, September 1st?
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#55 hq_Jorri

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:35

Check here:

www.fokkerspincentennial.nl/

And let me know if and when you're going!

Here are some 1950's drawings of the DVII made for a modeling mag (I think some figures are copies from older drawings). Bad quality, if anyone is really interested I can try to cap some details:

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/D7-1.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/D7-2.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/D7-3.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/D7-4.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/E3.JPG

http://www.camelfag.com/downloads/Dr1.JPG
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#56 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 18:20

http://www.fokkerspi...l.nl/programma/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fokkerspi...l.nl/programma/

3 and/or 4 september. It's in my calendar now! Will have to check which day I'll be going.
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#57 Greywing2

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 21:24

yet im only thinkin about it (no promises), but as real sounds fan - i whant it to be best and close to real as possible ;)

@Viks…the guy you borrowed to 1C Maddox did a great job with sounds in planes which were included later (Brisfit, DVIIF, heavy bombers etc.)….much better than sounds on stock planes IMHO (which are also too slient btw)….is he still working on ROF sounds?
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#58 =FB=VikS

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:55

yet im only thinkin about it (no promises), but as real sounds fan - i whant it to be best and close to real as possible ;)

@Viks…the guy you borrowed to 1C Maddox did a great job with sounds in planes which were included later (Brisfit, DVIIF, heavy bombers etc.)….much better than sounds on stock planes IMHO (which are also too slient btw)

he did all planes sound for ROF, the thing is that - he gained much more experience and we had no such flyby sound recordings that days (only static engine sound).

….is he still working on ROF sounds?

yes, and he never stoped to work on it ;)
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#59 hq_Jorri

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:05

ROf sports some of the best external sounds I've ever heard and you can really notice how they improve with the later planes :D Especially the distinction between the seperate engine and prop sounds is great. Handley Page is perhaps the best example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqWG1RYpcH4

ROF is perhaps the only flightsim that could perhaps qualify for a virtual airshow just by doing a low airfield pass with one of these monsters :D
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#60 Kongo_Otto

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 22:28

ROF is perhaps the only flightsim that could perhaps qualify for a virtual airshow just by doing a low airfield pass with one of these monsters :D

Hm sounds like a pretty good idea, would be fun to do such an Airshow and make a little Youtube video from it. :D
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#61 SC/JG_Oesau

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 23:56

IvanK got back to me and said he'll try and get hold of Mikael when he returns from the UK on the 25th Aug.
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#62 gavagai

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 02:53

Vander beat you to it!

Pieter,


The roll rate is what you see stick is full left ,and yes rudder is
always used when rolling. Ailerons have equal movement up and down
nothing else is possible with that design.

Engine is a Daimler High compression 200hp.

Mikael Carlson
;)
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#63 SYN_Vander

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 05:42

Still, we have some more questions to ask… :)
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#64 SC/JG_Oesau

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 22:01

Good to get the response.

One other thing to note =FB=VikS, the take off roll in comparison to ROF.
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#65 gavagai

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 22:47

Yes, but that one has an overcompressed D.IIIau, the most common engine in the D.VII. In RoF we have the regular 180hp D.IIIa, the least common engine in the D.VII. They are really different aircraft.
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#66 =FB=VikS

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:58

yup - as take off roll - its better to check it on our D7F w/o hohengas on.

btw i have one more question for him - have he managed (or maybe someone else) to check maximum level speed on his Dr.I and D.7?

Also - when he performing - what kind of fuel amount he have onboard? How many fuel in D7 on that video?
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#67 SYN_Vander

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:03

I have asked some more questions but haven't seen a reply yet. I think he's away. Let's make a list of these questions so we don't need to keep nagging him. I'd love to see him fly the sim though and compare first-hand… :)
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#68 gavagai

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 13:36

So when can we expect to see the RoF D.VII(F) have symmetrical aileron deflection complete with adjustments to adverse yaw? :D
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#69 Flakbird_1

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 14:45

Hey, VikS, if you didn't know already, someone replied to your comment on YouTube, (Not sure if it was yours or not,) and said it was a Mercedes Engine.
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#70 =FB=VikS

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:13

So when can we expect to see the RoF D.VII(F) have symmetrical aileron deflection complete with adjustments to adverse yaw? :D

symmetric ailerons - yes, but evrything other - is up to the laws of physics.

Hey, VikS, if you didn't know already, someone replied to your comment on YouTube, (Not sure if it was yours or not,) and said it was a Mercedes Engine.


rgr, saw it.
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#71 gavagai

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:09

So when can we expect to see the RoF D.VII(F) have symmetrical aileron deflection complete with adjustments to adverse yaw? :D

symmetric ailerons - yes, but evrything other - is up to the laws of physics.

Yes, of course! I misspoke… Let the chips fall where they may. :S!:
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#72 =FB=VikS

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:16

So when can we expect to see the RoF D.VII(F) have symmetrical aileron deflection complete with adjustments to adverse yaw? :D

symmetric ailerons - yes, but evrything other - is up to the laws of physics.

Yes, of course! I misspoke… Let the chips fall where they may. :S!:

Correction - " where they should " ;)
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#73 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:59

Jorri and I have been wondering about the ailerons for over a year but we never had the data or proof to back it up - makes me very happy that Carlson finally confirmed out suspicions and that you want to change it in RoF :)
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#74 gavagai

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 13:11

Can we expect it in 1.021? 1.022? If all it involves is changing the deflection, without any further tweaking, could it be done right away, pretty please? :)
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#75 =FB=VikS

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 13:49

Can we expect it in 1.021? 1.022? If all it involves is changing the deflection, without any further tweaking, could it be done right away, pretty please? :)

1.022
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#76 arjisme

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 13:54

Looking forward to it, VikS. Thanks!
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#77 meezer3

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 14:16

For the record, and pardon the semi-noob question, adverse yaw effect is where you should be able to use the aileron wing control surfaces to yaw at low speeds on take-off, correct? This should be the same as how the Gotha rudder is useless during takeoff, but the wing ailerons work great at controlling yaw direction?
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#78 SYN_Vander

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 14:38

Adverse yaw: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Adverse_yaw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....iki/Adverse_yaw

Good news Viks! Although I still wonder what the max angle should be. The NACA report said 23/32 deg which makes me believe that this is a misprint and should read 23/23 degrees.
Let's hope the symmetrical ailerons will make handling a bit more "crisp"… we'll see. I have enough faith in the RoF flight model! :)
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#79 gavagai

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 17:15

1.022? Sweet!

——–

Vander, seeing another flightsim with 23/23 degrees makes me think that would be it. Also, in that earlier document that was posted, none of the scouts had anything close to 32 degrees in either direction.

Here it is:

Image
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#80 hq_Jorri

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 17:21

Thanks for the great news!

I predict it will pretty much transfor the D.VII as a fighter plane. I don't expect the rollrate will change much (at all), but the amount of energy the D.VII currently loses when manoeuvring is the main thing holding it back.

With that gone, it will be a beast!

And once again: it's a BIG compliment to the ROF flight physics that the current D.vII actually has so much adverse yaw, considering the ailerons it has been modelled with!
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