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My idea for a Skin: Wiking


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#1 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 17:24

This isn't exactly historically related time-wise, but in WW2 there was a German tank division called the 5th SS Panzer, or "Wiking." This particular unit was actually a very honorable and decorated Tank division, known for their Skirmish in Scandinavia.
Anyways, their symbol is rather interesting.
Here, take a look:
Image
Now, would that or would that not look badass on an Albatros DV.a?
I think it would! 8-)

Now, for actual skin.
-Wings: Grey lozenge lower wings, Black Upper wings
-Fuselage: White nosecone and engine panel, With sky blue body forward of the cockpit
Black body aft of the cockpit, with white stripe bearing the Wiking shield
-Tail: Grey lozenge Rudder, Black and White striped tail

Now, unfortunately, I don't have the photoshop program in order to make this skin, but If anyone can make this, I think it would look great.
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#2 SirFreddie

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 18:42

However Badass it looks it is unhistorical for WW1 and in bad taste considering the rounding up and murdering of civilian 'jews' associated with 5th SS panzer division…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Panzer_Division_Wiking
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#3 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:09

However, the swastika in WW1 was not at all a symbol of racism and genocidal nature. It was in fact used on German aeroplanes during WW1. Besides, the swastika has to be at a 45 degree tilt clockwise in order to be a symbol of the Nazis.
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#4 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:11

Also, the Wiking division was formed by Scandinavians recruited be Germans. I'm part Scandinavian myself.
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#5 NewGuy_

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:16

Yeah, screw the SS. While my relatives, having fought the SS in WW II, generally considered the SS soldiers the best trained and toughest fighters, they encountered in the war, my relatives would certainly not want to see the SS glorified. Well trained or not, they wanted to end the existence of my kind and they can rot in hell. I have no such distaste for German soldiers, generally speaking, I even model a lot of my ROF tactics off of Erich Hartmann, but the SS (and SD, for hopefully obvious reasons) is an exception. :S!: MJ
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#6 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:23

I do NOT condone the actions of the SS, and I don't see this as any form of glorifying the Nazi party. I just believe that this symbol, being not a true swastika, and having ties to my ancestral race, wouldn't look so bad an a plane.
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#7 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:25

I have Viking roots, I think of this as not a Nazi symbol, but a symbol of honor.
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#8 NewGuy_

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:33

I do NOT condone the actions of the SS, and I don't see this as any form of glorifying the Nazi party. I just believe that this symbol, being not a true swastika, and having ties to my ancestral race, wouldn't look so bad an a plane.

Generally, I think that Swastikas should be allowed on planes. Erich Hartmann had one, on Black Tulip and I would not want to see his machine bastardized or defaced for political correctness, but you yourself tie this symbol directly to the SS; so it seems to be a direct glorification of the same.

I consider the SS an exception to my censorship approach, since the SS was not fighting for Germany directly, under the pretense of protecting their families from foreign attackers, but rather, the SS was fighting directly for Hitler, to actively advance genocide and the establishment of Germania; in displacement and replacement of many cultures on Earth.
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#9 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:41

Viking symbols are often misinterpreted as hate symbols because the nazis used them.
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#10 SirFreddie

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:49

I never mentioned the Swastika. Coming from Leicester, England. I'm used to swastka's as a 'good luck' symbol on my neighbours doorsteps and doors …and not from the 'National Front/BNP'…I love curry!!!

Being British there's a pretty good chance I've 'Scandanavian' roots also but does your Scandanavian 'Symbol of honour' start with the 'Nazis' in history or does it go back further than that…I think not. But please provide some evidence of pre Nazi 'Scandinavian Swastikas'

Anyway if it's good on a skin put the skin to a vote ;)

Here's Gimp to give you a start…http://wisedownloads.com/Go/gimp/?subid=gimp%20download&source=google_Gimp-search-uk%2Fca_1
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#11 The-Killer

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 19:57

I really like it. It looks like it belongs on the side of an Albatros.



This isn't exactly historically related time-wise, but in WW2 there was a German tank division called the 5th SS Panzer, or "Wiking." This particular unit was actually a very honorable and decorated Tank division, known for their Skirmish in Scandinavia.
Anyways, their symbol is rather interesting.
Here, take a look:
Image
Now, would that or would that not look badass on an Albatros DV.a?
I think it would! 8-)

Now, for actual skin.
-Wings: Grey lozenge lower wings, Black Upper wings
-Fuselage: White nosecone and engine panel, With sky blue body forward of the cockpit
Black body aft of the cockpit, with white stripe bearing the Wiking shield
-Tail: Grey lozenge Rudder, Black and White striped tail

Now, unfortunately, I don't have the photoshop program in order to make this skin, but If anyone can make this, I think it would look great.

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#12 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 20:11

http://www.wendag.co...ns/aryswas.jpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.wendag.co...ns/aryswas.jpeg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2cyiq9d.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://i40.tinypic.com/2cyiq9d.jpg

http://www.sunnyway....nes/sundisk.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.sunnyway....nes/sundisk.gif

http://www.ragweedforge.com/5149.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ragweedforge.com/5149.jpg

The last one is celtic, not viking, but that also has a part in my ancestry
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#13 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 20:17

I do NOT condone the actions of the SS, and I don't see this as any form of glorifying the Nazi party. I just believe that this symbol, being not a true swastika, and having ties to my ancestral race, wouldn't look so bad an a plane.

Generally, I think that Swastikas should be allowed on planes. Erich Hartmann had one, on Black Tulip and I would not want to see his machine bastardized or defaced for political correctness, but you yourself tie this symbol directly to the SS; so it seems to be a direct glorification of the same.

I consider the SS an exception to my censorship approach, since the SS was not fighting for Germany directly, under the pretense of protecting their families from foreign attackers, but rather, the SS was fighting directly for Hitler, to actively advance genocide and the establishment of Germania; in displacement and replacement of many cultures on Earth.
Exactly!
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#14 NewGuy_

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 20:27

I do NOT condone the actions of the SS, and I don't see this as any form of glorifying the Nazi party. I just believe that this symbol, being not a true swastika, and having ties to my ancestral race, wouldn't look so bad an a plane.

If this is true…

This isn't exactly historically related time-wise, but in WW2 there was a German tank division called the 5th SS Panzer, or "Wiking." This particular unit was actually a very honorable and decorated Tank division, known for their Skirmish in Scandinavia.

… then what exactly do you mean by, "Very honorable?" Clearly you think that the SS is very honorable. They were well trained, they fought awfully hard and well, but honorable? They were sadistic militaristic animals; direct agents of a genocidal maniac, agents of genocide and cultural upheaval. Police State thugs and murderers; good soldiers or not.

They fought for evil and their reward is Global condemnation; for their infamy, sadism and degeneracy. Thankfully, the ROF team would never allow for the display of any known SS symbol. I am beginning to side more and more with Jorri. I am a bit naive to believe that people can learn from history and move on…
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#15 SirFreddie

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 20:28

Beautiful art work, as is the Wiking symbol. My problem is with the 'Rounding up and murdering (of jews)' of the 5th SS.
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#16 hq_Jorri

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 21:07

I think the Vikings did a fair share of murdering, pillaging and raping themselves. No wonder the Nazis took a liking to them.

I don't know what it is with all this fascination about ancestry. No matter what the bastards did, you're related to them so you have to show it off, right?

Well, to me it's just another swastika used by German troops under the reign of the fascists. If you argue that the fascists only used the swastika under a 45 degree tilt…well I guess you just proved yourself wrong with this one.

If you don't like the holocaus,t put your money where your mouth is. Show a bit of damn respect to the victims. You didn't open this topic by saying you wanted to use an ancient viking symbol. You opoened this topic saying how cool this SS German panzer swastika looks.
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#17 EclecticRazor

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 21:12

I think that the only swastikas allowed in Rise of Flight should be those which are historical, such as on Werner Voss' albatros. We know that this wasn't motivated by National Socialism because it predates it as a political movement. It is unfortunate that a symbol, such as the swastika, which represented good fortune and the sun, should have become tainted by it's adoption by a fanatical political party, but it was.

This is an international game. Rise of Flight must not offend the majority to please the few. You could easily make this a "Mods On" skin and fly it in your single player missions and offend no one in the process. Better yet, choose another symbol which doesn't carry such horrific meaning. The symbol you chose represents those scandinavians sympathetic to the nazi cause, which should be enough reason for you to shun it.

If a normal picture can say a thousand words, this particular picture shouts millions. Try to be sensitive to this harsh reality and be mature enough to let go of this image in deference to those who associate it with persecution and mass-murder.
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#18 NewGuy_

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 21:20

I think the Vikings did a fair share of murdering, pillaging and raping themselves. No wonder the Nazis took a liking to them.

I don't know what it is with all this fascination about ancestry. No matter what the bastards did, you're related to them so you have to show it off, right?

Well, to me it's just another swastika used by German troops under the reign of the fascists. If you argue that the fascists only used the swastika under a 45 degree tilt…well I guess you just proved yourself wrong with this one.

If you don't like the holocaus,t put your money where your mouth is. Show a bit of damn respect to the victims. You didn't open this topic by saying you wanted to use an ancient viking symbol. You opoened this topic saying how cool this SS German panzer swastika looks.

Jorri,
Thank you Jorri. Plus, I would like to publicly apologize to you, Jorri, for my having argued in support of allowing the use of the Swastika, in games and in other representations, as a matter of historical fidelity. It is clear to me that there are circumstances when the use of this symbol is meant to advance the reputation of the genocidal agents of Adolf Hitler and not merely as a matter of simple historical fidelity.

If the use of a swastika is meant to advance a belief that the SS was, in some civil manner of understanding, very honorable, than I am in error for my openness to the display of these symbols. I apologize to you for not being more thoughtful, in consideration of the consequences of my position on the use of such symbols; such as the case here.

While this case was not an instance of a request for a historical representation of a WW 1 aircraft, it was a request to use a historical symbol, in contemplation of the use of this symbol, by the SS. With regard to my stance on the historical use of the swastika, there are clear cases when censorship is a great good thing; particularly when the alternative is advancing a favorable historical view of the SS. S! MJ
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#19 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 21:55

Using swastikas in a historical context, definitely yes. Even in a ww2 sim. Using them for fictional skins, avatars, signatures etc, with todays knowledge and the present affiliation the swastika has with nazis, genocide and war crimes in general is a no-go though, imo.

The Waffen-SS is a very bumpy terrain, they might have fought bravely and valiantly in many cases so they do deserve some respect on the one hand, but there have also been many cases where they went too far, to their image has been rather tainted.


I do very much oppose of the tendency to label every German soldier as a nazi though, my grandfather fought in ww2, with Luftwaffe flak units in north Africa and Sicily, and he very much opposed of their ideals, in fact he disliked being a soldier in general.

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#20 borntoolate

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 22:18

… If a normal picture can say a thousand words, this particular picture shouts millions. Try to be sensitive to this harsh reality and be mature enough to let go of this image in deference to those who associate it with persecution and mass-murder.


+1
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#21 Coaster4thGA

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 02:20

well, just an idea. A very controversial idea, yes, but an idea.
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#22 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:45

I think I've gone through this arguement before and lost, Although in WW1 the swastika was a good luck charm (and still is around the world to-day) and was used on uniforms and machines (on all sides) by to-day's western standards it's considered a nazi symbol.

I personally think swastikas are perfectly fine in a WW1 game and even a WW2 game because of historical accuracy and the time period decorations, as long as the person doesn't affiliate it with nazism (unless it's on something used by the nazis) then it's fine with me. I see plenty of kids walking around with the rising sun on their clothes and other items, the Japs did some more unspeakable things than the Nazis yet we don't affiliate the sun with the ruthless and disgusting acts of the Japaneese during that time period. I've also seen people wearing soviet style clothes or real clothes, I personally think communism is worse than Nazism, the communists killed millions of their own people and threatened most of the world with neuclear weapons and took over half of europe and most of Asia. I don't see why we would cut more slack for the hammer and sickle than the swastika. As long as the swastika is used as it was intended pre-Nazis or used in historical context then I have no problem with it. It sounds like he wants to use the symbol to glorify one of the SS Panzer divisions which I do not approve of.
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#23 Huetz

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 05:07

Haven't we had that debate already ad nauseum? If you took a minute to search the forum you'd have found an xx page thread where the conclusion was yes - within the right context.

Since you put it into your personal context, that's a no. There's no honor at all in anything the SS did. Seriously, there's cheap history classes at your local public schools.

Now while I am already here, it may be time to put some stuff into perspective. I have seen quite a few guys recently (and not only around here) that seem to be attracted to certain parts of German history more than ever could be good. Please, get the difference between affiliation and interest right.

There's nothing cool about teutonic knighthood nor is there anything cool about ANYTHING related to German history between 1933-45. Even the bloody Teutons would have puked reading this.

If you are interested in the era go and purchase a few books and do some reading, but as soon as you want to come here and spread that disease-like bullsh*t about honorable SS divisions and according symbols it may be time to do the world a favor and head for your cellar and play a bit with that P38 you recently purchased.

I know, this is a simulation forum and people tend to go for a bit of roleplaying for extra immersion, but there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere. Gloryfing an SS division is way beyond that and don't you think we're stupid. A quick background google check mysteriously reveals that this is also a favorite symbol of certain communities of white, unemployed, undeducated sh*theads. Probably should have googled a bit yourself.
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#24 NewGuy_

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 05:11

I think I've gone through this arguement before and lost, Although in WW1 the swastika was a good luck charm (and still is around the world to-day) and was used on uniforms and machines (on all sides) by to-day's western standards it's considered a nazi symbol.

I personally think swastikas are perfectly fine in a WW1 game and even a WW2 game because of historical accuracy and the time period decorations, as long as the person doesn't affiliate it with nazism (unless it's on something used by the nazis) then it's fine with me. I see plenty of kids walking around with the rising sun on their clothes and other items, the Japs did some more unspeakable things than the Nazis yet we don't affiliate the sun with the ruthless and disgusting acts of the Japaneese during that time period. I've also seen people wearing soviet style clothes or real clothes, I personally think communism is worse than Nazism, the communists killed millions of their own people and threatened most of the world with neuclear weapons and took over half of europe and most of Asia. I don't see why we would cut more slack for the hammer and sickle than the swastika. As long as the swastika is used as it was intended pre-Nazis or used in historical context then I have no problem with it. It sounds like he wants to use the symbol to glorify one of the SS Panzer divisions which I do not approve of.

I usually argue on the side of allowing the swastika, when it is historically accurate, within the context of the WWI usage or WW2 usage. Still, in this case, there was a clear, well articulated, intent to draw upon a swastika symbol, in contemplation of the use of this symbol, by what was described, by the OP, as a very honorable and highly decorated part of the SS. Within this specific context, I voiced concern over the use of the swastika and quite frankly, the adoration of the SS, so expressed by the OP.

I have had many relatives serve in the US military, but I would not put up a symbol that I knew was associated, specifically with the Black Hills War; such as play Garry Owen on a NEWGUY video or put the Garry Owen, raised sword, 7th Cavalry symbol on my machine, because I know that there were atrocities committed against the peoples of the Cheyenne and the Lakota, among other peoples and that it is not appropriate to bring symbols associated with concerted acts of violence, targeted against peoples, such as the sadistic, heartless, savage acts, directed at displacing and replacing the Lakota and Cheyenne peoples; through mass murder and other acts of violence and humiliation, facilitating the near annihilation of entire cultures from off the face of the Earth. S!: MJ
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#25 Eckhart

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:18

The swastika has a very complex history and can be found in many cultures. It's symbolic meaning is far beyond the abusive use by the Nazis as a hate symbol and it is far beyond the level of discussion of a flightsim forum. It is quite easy to get a glimpse of it by simply reading the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

During WWI, the swastika has been used as a good luck charm in almost every army (escadrille Lafayette, Werner Voss etc.): http://www.theaerodr...ter-pilots.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/2002/ … ilots.html

One of the most extraordinary stories is the one of this 'German Jewish knight of the sky' Fritz Beckhardt:
http://en.wikipedia....Fritz_Beckhardt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....Fritz_Beckhardt
He flew with a Swastika painted on his Schuckert. This is truly an amazing story: http://www.theaerodr...-beckhardt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/peopl … hardt.html

Regarding Scandinavians the Finnish airforce sported a blue swastika after 1918 (long before the Nazis)well known to those of us familiar with the modded versions of IL2.

Now does this mean we should authorize the use of the Swastika in combat flightsims? Historical correctness is perhaps an acceptable argument?

My answer is: NO SWASTIKA !!! :!:

You can always create your own skin or d/l one and fly with 'mods on' in your own home but this should never become a public event (i.e. multiplayer)!

Why?

Because we cannot expect that all the members of our community have the appropriate level of education to distinguish a horrible hate symbol from a very powerful ancestral sign ( I studied quite extensively this subject).
Millions have suffered a horrible fate under the Nazi swastika and therefore the hate version of the Swastika should be banned from our society. Otherwise confusion and misunderstanding will have a very bad influence especially on the younger ones.
Some are misinformed (e.g. the true brotherhood of the Teutonic knights was a religious congregation which was outlawed by the Nazis and their members were persecuted!). Others don't have the broad knowledge necessary to discuss questions of guilt. Kurt Schumacher was a German socialist who spent almost the whole period of the Nazi terror in a concentration camp and who later died of his resulting ill health ( he was severely tortured during this period): http://en.wikipedia....Kurt_Schumacher" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....Kurt_Schumacher
This man, who cannot be suspected of any sympathy regarding the Nazis, opposed unsuccessfully the automatic application of the war criminal rule for members of the Waffen SS. He wanted instead an individual appreciation of guilt.

However this doesn't exonerate Waffen SS unities like the Wiking from having been involved in despicable atrocities!

Attached Files


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#26 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:28

I think the Vikings did a fair share of murdering, pillaging and raping themselves. No wonder the Nazis took a liking to them.

I don't know what it is with all this fascination about ancestry. No matter what the bastards did, you're related to them so you have to show it off, right?

Well, to me it's just another swastika used by German troops under the reign of the fascists. If you argue that the fascists only used the swastika under a 45 degree tilt…well I guess you just proved yourself wrong with this one.

If you don't like the holocaus,t put your money where your mouth is. Show a bit of damn respect to the victims. You didn't open this topic by saying you wanted to use an ancient viking symbol. You opoened this topic saying how cool this SS German panzer swastika looks.


+1


Haven't we had that debate already ad nauseum? If you took a minute to search the forum you'd have found an xx page thread where the conclusion was yes - within the right context.

Since you put it into your personal context, that's a no. There's no honor at all in anything the SS did. Seriously, there's cheap history classes at your local public schools.

Now while I am already here, it may be time to put some stuff into perspective. I have seen quite a few guys recently (and not only around here) that seem to be attracted to certain parts of German history more than ever could be good. Please, get the difference between affiliation and interest right.

There's nothing cool about teutonic knighthood nor is there anything cool about ANYTHING related to German history between 1933-45. Even the bloody Teutons would have puked reading this.

If you are interested in the era go and purchase a few books and do some reading, but as soon as you want to come here and spread that disease-like bullsh*t about honorable SS divisions and according symbols it may be time to do the world a favor and head for your cellar and play a bit with that P38 you recently purchased.

I know, this is a simulation forum and people tend to go for a bit of roleplaying for extra immersion, but there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere. Gloryfing an SS division is way beyond that and don't you think we're stupid. A quick background google check mysteriously reveals that this is also a favorite symbol of certain communities of white, unemployed, undeducated sh*theads. Probably should have googled a bit yourself.


+1
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#27 hq_Jorri

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:18

well, just an idea. A very controversial idea, yes, but an idea.

Oh, so you do realise that, then? That's a start….

Some very good posts have been made here by everyone but you. Thanks all :S!:
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#28 Zoring

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:02

Bloody hell guys, just let him have a cross on his aeroplane, quit the bitching.
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#29 hq_Jorri

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:20

He can, actually: in mods on mode. But if he asks for our opinion, he gets it.

Thank god for that, what a boring and bad world it would be if everyone just kept his trap shut as much as possible.
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#30 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:32

I think the point is Mods on = no Multiplayer.

And like I said before, I think the swastika is fine to use as long as its In historical context or not being used to symbolize Nazism (which it is here :()
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#31 NewGuy_

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:54

Bloody hell guys, just let him have a cross on his aeroplane, quit the bitching.

The OP can always put the symbol of his machine, in mods off. Should the open adoration of the Waffen SS be advocated through introducing a symbol, advancing the idea that the SS was very honorable and highly decorated? No, my relatives help put an end to those animals and the hell with their adoration.

If they wanted to be adored, they should have beat my relatives on the battlefield. They thought they were a super race, but they came up short, when fighting my family. The SS were animals and they are defeated punks and losers. Screw their adoration. If any Neo Nazis want to kill me, I will give the punks my address and they can show me what super men they are. ;)
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#32 J5_Rumey

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:28

Thread closed, this section is for voteing on skin topics only.
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