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Bristol F2B (F.II) - RFC No.7 Training School - Crocodile


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#1 Panthercules

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 06:30

This aircraft, Bristol F2B (F.II), Serial No. unknown (possibly C-4879), was flown at the RFC No.7 Training School, at Netheravon, England. The aircraft was painted overall in a red and white checkerboard pattern (except for the underside of the top wing, for some reason), with a green nose decorated with a crocodile mouth, and was known as "the Crocodile".

I found a photo in the book noted below that showed the details of the crocodile face better than the profile drawing had, so I've tweaked this one to better match the photo in that regard (screenshots and download file have been updated):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Latest version of the Croc's head (see posts below for discussion):

Image

Image



Reference:
Bristol Fighter in Action, Peter Cooksley, Aircraft No. 137, squadron/signal publications, p.26.

I've seen some images on a Google search showing black-and-white (instead of red-and-white) checkerboards, and some differences in wing or tail surfaces checked or not, so research is ongoing but I've chosen to go with the info from the book noted above so far.


Download (updated): http://www.mediafire...roc.updated.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire.../file/13bmy4q07 … pdated.zip

Feedback and votes will be welcome!
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#2 J5_Rumey

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:41

I will vote yes, looks really cool. Nice work Panthercules. But going by arguments in other thread regarding the j5 bird never flying in combat, it think they would vote no for this to?
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#3 =J13=Emperor

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:55

Yes, good job!
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#4 rOEN911

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:04

that was quick you are great skinner.
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#5 Panthercules

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 14:45

I will vote yes, looks really cool. Nice work Panthercules. But going by arguments in other thread regarding the j5 bird never flying in combat, it think they would vote no for this to?

Of course, they're free to do so, like they are free to remove the skin from their install if they don't want it (Laser's awesome Skin Management Tool makes it very easy to do that). Like you, I have done a few captured aircraft skins where I could find reasonably decent references for them, and they are already in some of the previous skin packs - I have not heard about any particular abuse of those skins in MP, though I understand the concern a little. I think whether these oddball skins actually find a good use in the game will depend upon the skill and interest of the mission makers who will have to create appropriate scenarios to use them in. I just think it's nice to give the mission-makers a chance to create some cool missions with these rather unusual but also actually historical aircraft, so I think all we can do is to put them out there and see if the community wants to use them or not.

I've already got my eye on some really cool-looking home defense paint jobs that I'd love to see people use for some Gotha interception missions over England if we ever get any maps to use for that. And I can imagine a mission where some training school aircraft like this one might have been pressed into action to fend off a particularly massive Gotha strike or zeppelin raid, so maybe one day :)
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#6 Zoring

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:04

Very interesting buddy, i'm all for these odd skins that are historical.
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#7 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:06

I like it Panther.

Do you know the arguments for black vs red on this skin? Were they mentioned in the source?

Also I've seen profiles of it that are not covered all over with the checked pattern- different planes? Or different timescale for the same plane? Or just a grey area?
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#8 J99Hasso

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 16:58

Yes, great.
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#9 von_Semmel

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 17:24

:0o: YES! looks quite funny
:)

:S!:
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#10 Panthercules

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:07

I like it Panther.

Do you know the arguments for black vs red on this skin? Were they mentioned in the source?

Also I've seen profiles of it that are not covered all over with the checked pattern- different planes? Or different timescale for the same plane? Or just a grey area?

No - in my web searching I've seen different drawings with different colors (black vs red) and different portions of the undersides and/or tail section covered with checkerboards or not (even one having a fish in the croc's mouth, and a more fanciful depiction of the croc's head and lips), but I haven't encountered anything textual explaining why those different drawings had those different interpretations.
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#11 NickM

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:16

Yes from me. If we are going to restrict historical skins only to aircraft that actually flew in combat then we will have to prevent all Fokker D.VIIs from flying over the winter map and most Fokker DR Is from flying over the summer maps. Training aircraft skins can be great for sight seeing and general messing around. Let's be open minded :).
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#12 HotTom

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:21

Aye!

Training aircraft are totally valid!

And, yes, there are some really cool Home Defense color schemes for the Biff! Looking forward to them!

Also wouldn't mind seeing some OZ Palestine and some RFC Italy skins for the Biff, even if we don't have a map (yet)!

:S!:

HT
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#13 Panthercules

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:31

Aye!

Training aircraft are totally valid!

And, yes, there are some really cool Home Defense color schemes for the Biff! Looking forward to them!

Also wouldn't mind seeing some OZ Palestine and some RFC Italy skins for the Biff, even if we don't have a map (yet)!

:S!:

HT

There are already some Italian-theater skins up for polling (No. 139 Squadron was operating on the Italian front), and IIRC the Official Pack already contains some Palestine theater skins that Graf did.
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#14 Panthercules

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:38

I found a photo showing the crocodile head details better, so have updated the first post with the new version based on that photo. Still no idea yet why some people think the checks are black instead of red, or why some drawings show the bottom fuselage or tail parts covered differently.
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#15 FlyingShark

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:53

Nice work, Yes.

:S!:
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#16 piecost

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 20:58

Great stuff
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#17 GrassGuy

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:57

Very interesting buddy, i'm all for these odd skins that are historical.

I find it hard to vote yes for a historical skin that was not used in front line service. The issue of realism draws people to sims like this and "other" sims use that as major selling point. It looks really cool but it's impossible to argue it would never have flown off a muddy field in France or even in a home defense mission. After reading a bunch of these threads I find it interesting that as long as blue gets to fly it anything goes but a well researched red skin is shouted down. Is this a "simulation" or a shooter ??? It seems this plane will throw the balance of things, it's handful to fight using any tact. I am betting in some ways it is not quite spot on when it comes to real world flight characteristics. That coupled with the fact that Basil John Blackett is in the rear station of every plane in the sky one has to ask…..is this a sim or a shooter. I wonder how passionate (and defensive) you guys that fly blue will be if they ever give up an RE8 or a B.E.12. THESE are the planes that the men of the Triple Entente flew and died in for the better part of the war. My point is I am new to this sim and what has drawn me here is great graphics and really good online community, what will drive a guy like me away is an UNREALISTIC environment.
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#18 Pigmachine

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 17:24

I will not vote on this.. the croc mouth on 'the original' were more upward imho.
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#19 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:08

Very interesting buddy, i'm all for these odd skins that are historical.

I find it hard to vote yes for a historical skin that was not used in front line service. The issue of realism draws people to sims like this and "other" sims use that as major selling point. It looks really cool but it's impossible to argue it would never have flown off a muddy field in France or even in a home defense mission. After reading a bunch of these threads I find it interesting that as long as blue gets to fly it anything goes but a well researched red skin is shouted down. Is this a "simulation" or a shooter ??? It seems this plane will throw the balance of things, it's handful to fight using any tact. I am betting in some ways it is not quite spot on when it comes to real world flight characteristics. That coupled with the fact that Basil John Blackett is in the rear station of every plane in the sky one has to ask…..is this a sim or a shooter. I wonder how passionate (and defensive) you guys that fly blue will be if they ever give up an RE8 or a B.E.12. THESE are the planes that the men of the Triple Entente flew and died in for the better part of the war. My point is I am new to this sim and what has drawn me here is great graphics and really good online community, what will drive a guy like me away is an UNREALISTIC environment.


Who are red and who are blue?

Can I be on red if possible?
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#20 SirFreddie

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:21

I'll vote yes to 'Historical' skins if they're historically accurate…so I think Yes here.

Voting for them to be used 'Historically' is a different Poll!
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#21 Panthercules

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:16

I will not vote on this.. the croc mouth on 'the original' were more upward imho.


Not sure what you mean by "more upward" - do you have any photos/references you can share that would explain or show what you mean here? The only photo I've found does show it painted more as an actual croc head, with the snout edges defined/outlined by white, which was not how the profile drawing I originally worked from showed it, so I have modified the nose to look like that photo in that respect (the new screenshots now show this in the first post above). I took another look at the photo, and I don't see how it looks "more upward" than I now have it. I'll be happy to try to get it more accurate if I can understand what it needs.
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#22 Pigmachine

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:22

It's just slighly more up angeled.. changed my mind and vote yes

Attached Files

  • Attached File  croc.jpg   228.75KB   371 downloads
  • Attached File  croc2.jpg   175.53KB   368 downloads

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#23 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 21:50

Pig machine- you weren't worried that the colours and design were completely different to your decal sheet just that it had a different mouth?

I voted yes btw. It's impossible to tell which profile is right so this one is as good a guess as any.
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#24 Pigmachine

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 21:56

I just read it was checherboard colored.. and went by the name 'The Crocodile' ?
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#25 Panthercules

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 22:42

Yeah - that's one of the pictures I saw that shows black and white instead of red/white, and shows the bottom of fuselage and tail as white (and some tops as PC10) instead of checkered, but I couldn't find anything yet explaining why the creator of that picture thought it looked like that (the photo I have clearly shows the top of the lower wing as checkered, but doesn't show the bottom or tail surfaces in question).

I did take another look at the photo I have, and it does seem the original had more color variations in it, so I've tweaked the nose to give the head a little more character in that regard:

Image
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#26 1PL-Rahon-1Esk

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 23:23

Nice skin Panther. Voted 'yes', but please consider correcting the mouth. Firstly the nose part should be rised, so both sides of the crock head be connected on top of the fuselage. Secondly the chin and rest of the lower jaw should be a slightly wider, as in the pic below. For now it looks a bit like a beak.
Image

or why some drawings show the bottom fuselage or tail parts covered differently.
That's because the aircraft was repainted. Your scheme is believed to be the earlier one.
Image

BTW. Are you going to make the "BrisFish" too?

S!
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#27 Panthercules

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 23:53

Nice skin Panther. Voted 'yes', but please consider correcting the mouth. Firstly the nose part should be rised, so both sides of the crock head be connected on top of the fuselage. Secondly the chin and rest of the lower jaw should be a slightly wider, as in the pic below. For now it looks a bit like a beak.
Image

or why some drawings show the bottom fuselage or tail parts covered differently.
That's because the aircraft was repainted. Your scheme is believed to be the earlier one.
Image

BTW. Are you going to make the "BrisFish" too?

S!


Cool - thanks for the new pics. Love it, though this is going to be taxing my already over-taxed skills as an artist to get this croc head better. I will give it a shot though.

Question - I noticed that the last photo (49) that shows the later checkerboards added to the underside of the top wing also shows the serial number on the tail, which is not there in the earlier shot, and you mention that the color of the checkerboard was changed from red to black in a subsequent re-painting - do you happen to know if the checkerboard was still red/white in that later photo (#49) or if it had been changed to black/white by then?

Also, is the "BrisFish" reference to the fish seen hanging out of the croc's mouth on photo #49, or some other plane scheme? Do you know if the fish was there from the start (e.g., at the time of photo #48), or if it was added later (and if later, was it while it was still red-checked)?
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#28 1PL-Rahon-1Esk

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 00:28

Question - I noticed that the last photo (49) that shows the later checkerboards added to the underside of the top wing also shows the serial number on the tail, which is not there in the earlier shot, and you mention that the color of the checkerboard was changed from red to black in a subsequent re-painting - do you happen to know if the checkerboard was still red/white in that later photo (#49) or if it had been changed to black/white by then?
Can't say anything for sure. The thing with b/w photos is that some colors can be completely darkened, when there was a bad filter applied on the objective lense and it's a pretty common problem with WWI photos. I didn't manage to find any specific info on the black versus red checkerbord discussion, but by looking at the pics I attached in previous post, I'd say, that the checkerboard in the pic 49 could have been either red/white or green/white (so of course it must have been the red/white). The reason I suppose so is that red squres are in nearly exactly same gray colour, that the green from the crockodile mouth.

Also, is the "BrisFish" reference to the fish seen hanging out of the croc's mouth on photo #49, or some other plane scheme? Do you know if the fish was there from the start (e.g., at the time of photo #48), or if it was added later (and if later, was it while it was still red-checked)?
'BrisFish' was this beauty ;) :
Image
Image
Image

As fro the Crock's fish, I'm honestly no idea. The re-painting was done on the mouth too (note, that the top of the head was painted over whole top part of the fuselage and the upper jaw lacks it's teeth). It's pretty possible, that the fish was painted then, but I can't tell that for sure.

S!
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#29 Panthercules

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 02:46

Wow - that's one cool looking fish skin. But NO, I think I'll have to leave that particular creation to someone with more artistic talent (and patience).

As for the Croc, here's what I've got, and I think it's pretty close to done at this point unless other photos show up. I'm going to assume that the fish was in the mouth when photo #48 was taken, 'cause it looks cool, but I'd rather not lose the teeth on the top of the mouth or put the serial number on the tail and extra checkerboards on the upper wing bottom as shown in photo # 49. So, I'm shooting for the earlier depiction, i.e., photo #48 with the fish:

Image

Image
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#30 1PL-Rahon-1Esk

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:09

It sure looks cool, great job!

S!
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#31 rOEN911

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 10:57

yeap very good job you did.
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#32 WWDubya

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:05

Uhmmm…?! Can I, Can I , Caannn IIIIEYE!

… or is someone else tackling it?

… clippity-snip …

'BrisFish' was this beauty ;) :
Image
Image
Image

As fro the Crock's fish, I'm honestly no idea. The re-painting was done on the mouth too (note, that the top of the head was painted over whole top part of the fuselage and the upper jaw lacks it's teeth). It's pretty possible, that the fish was painted then, but I can't tell that for sure.

S!

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#33 1PL-Rahon-1Esk

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 13:39

Uhmmm…?! Can I, Can I , Caannn IIIIEYE!

… or is someone else tackling it?

… clippity-snip …

'BrisFish' was this beauty ;) :
Image
Sorry WWDubya, but you're a bit late ;)
Image

S!
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#34 WWDubya

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 23:22

Doh!! :shock:

Your work is coming along real nicely! :S!:
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#35 Panthercules

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:41

First post above updated with link to the updated/final version.

Poll concluded; thread locked.
Thanks for the votes!
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