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Open Mod's for ROF


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#41 Rama

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 15:57

Then if we got actual dev tools the possibilities open up even further, tweaked flight models? How great it would be if users could tweak the flight models, allowing SP users to use them freely and then submit them to 777 to review and possibly implement officially instead of wasting time themselves doing all the work.
Ohhh… That's what ou have in mind??… that would be ugly…
It would be the best way to declare a multi-forum raging war with super-egos (and their follower's groups) all defending their FM tweaks with theeth, nails and the harshest possible insults… blood and tripes allover the place…

Sorry, but I want to play combat flight simulation, not watch real wars… :shock:
Listen to an old guy: never play with FM twiking, don't even think about, that's the highway to insanity… :xx:
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#42 BADMUTHA

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 16:03

Funny considering OFF does it and nobody is over there raging and acting like an idiot. There are several FM mods and you can pick and choose what you'd like.

If it were to be used here and 777 were to adopt the FM tweaks and implement them officially then it would be on them to decide whose is best and most accurate, not the forum's.
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#43 Dutch2

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 16:40

red I can remember that OFF guys were also not keen on mods, maybe things are changed now a days, because I'm talking about the 2009 situation. Before this is locked I'm more had in mind models like AI planes, trucks, soldiers, Bcareer adding real pilot names and historic flights etc. not FM, DM or AI changes.
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If I wrote something in this forum that is hurting or abuse a member, organisation or country? Let me know by pm for the corrections, please do not react back by bashing/trolling/flaming or other personal attacks!

Yep I’m an 2009 Rof pre-order buyer and one of the few that did buy the Sikorsky game.

#44 gavagai

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 18:04

Again, Falcon BMS is a nice example of what a third party team can do. Their F-16 flight model is much better than the original Falcon 4 or Falcon 4 AF. I know because I can talk to an F-16 pilot who has compared them.
;)

I also have confidence that community members like piecost and chill31 could improve some of the RoF flight models. Because they don't have the pressure of a deadline, they could continue to tweak until performance data was actually matched, and not leave flight models half finished before they are kicked out the door, e.g. Sopwith Pup, Bristol F.2b. In other cases it would be very difficult to make a flight model that was worse than the one we already have, e.g. Albatros D.Va and D.II.
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#45 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 18:10

But it's great to see that you've stopped complaining about it…
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

Free Plank!

 


#46 Avimimus

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 21:19

Sorry, but I want to play combat flight simulation, not watch real wars… :shock:
Listen to an old guy: never play with FM twiking, don't even think about, that's the highway to insanity… :xx:

Yes, almost as bad as AI work…
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#47 zachanscom

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 00:10

people don't seem to understand how modding works, that might be behind the deluge of naysaying and general apprehension about it.

mods are not mandatory. servers can be mod enabled or disabled. demand dictates what mods are used. someone could make a mod implementing an f-15, it could still get zero downloads. and even if a lot of people download it, it doesn't mean you'll suddenly find it flying around in servers. the "market" as it were, in multiplayer games, is fairly clever and good on sorting these things out on their own.
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#48 Bf-110

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:28

Also,people believe all mods are made toward messing with the game engine and models.
For static object and ground and sea vehicles it would be great,and for low priority planes.
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#49 LukeFF

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 09:02

Funny considering OFF does it and nobody is over there raging and acting like an idiot. There are several FM mods and you can pick and choose what you'd like.

I've seen plenty of forums implode when people started tinkering around with flight models. No thanks, leave this part of the coding to the devs.
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#50 -bbob

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:35

What is wrong with mods, seriously?

If anything it allows people to pick and choose, nothing is forced on anyone. In some cases it even boosts sales for the game. DayZ for arma 2 is a great example of that, hundreds of thousands of copies of the game got snatched off the shelves for that thing.
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#51 AnKor85

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:57

There are various problems with RoF modding.
One of them that is important to me, is that RoF support for modding is very weak, almost absent. The ability to add or replace files is something that even the first Doom had in 1993. What was invented since then and what RoF lacks is mod management features - all we have is the On/Off switch whose sole purpose is to prevent using any mods in multiplayer. And since this switch affects both MP and SP and requires game restart to take effect it basically prevents from using any mods in singleplayer too for those (like me) who play both and are lazy to switch every time.
With real modding support servers should be able to declare "player must have mod A and optionally B, and B must be of version no less than 1.23" and as a bonus let the mod A be autodownloaded and enabled for this game session.
The closest we have got to this was a trick that allowed to use custom weather in multiplayer missions - as you may have seen on Syndicate in some of theirs Vintage Missions. Something more complex than custom clouds (like a whole new map or maybe even 3D objects) is possible in theory but quickly becomes unmanageable for real use.

I have thought about external mod management application - it could be possible if only RoF had an ability to start a SP mission or join a server right from command-line bypassing the intro and main screen.

However before complaining about mod management we need to have some mods :)
I will write my thoughts about why we don't have many of them a bit later.
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#52 LukeFF

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:44

What is wrong with mods, seriously?

In theory, nothing. It depends on what the goal of the mod is and how it meshes with the developer's vision for the game.
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#53 -bbob

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 13:13

And if it doesn't happen to, its not mandatory. So how exactly could it hurt the production if its completely free and optional?

By its very nature, it is explicitly separated from the actual development cycle.
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#54 elephant

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 13:26

Many times modding proves developers wrong when they state that this or that is impossible due to engine limitations…blah-blah-blah… :roll:
I have seen it happening in old IL-2…(but after it was abandoned by Maddox Games)
No developer likes it… :lol:
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#55 BADMUTHA

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 15:07

And if it doesn't happen to, its not mandatory. So how exactly could it hurt the production if its completely free and optional?

By its very nature, it is explicitly separated from the actual development cycle.

+1
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#56 Rama

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 18:14

I have seen it happening in old IL-2…(but after it was abandoned by Maddox Games)
No developer likes it…
You don't know what you're talking about.
Moding in IL2 had started looong before it was abandoned by M:1C. This was including planes, cockpits, various objects, maps, etc…. I have participated myself to many of these projects.
But since these mods were made available in official releases, some don't realise it was mods by third parties.
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#57 elephant

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 18:44

I did some IL-2 modding myself…I know.
Well, I should have said: when IL-2 became of low priority, for them,
it only makes my point stronger…
Any developer doesn't want to be proven wrong by any amateur enthusiast-> modder!
If they are not interested in doing certain things, because of no profit expectation,
why not leaving them to the enthusiasts? ;)
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#58 Bf-110

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 19:11

Ptobably the phobia resides on the fact people think mods mean "make my plane on steroids so I can pwnz in teh servers".
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#59 von_Pilsner

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 20:42

Ptobably the phobia resides on the fact people think mods mean "make my plane on steroids so I can pwnz in teh servers".

Depending on the anti-cheat measures used in game and on the servers it can mean exactly that (CFS series comes to mind).

Or perhaps they remember early IL2 mods and blame the modders for fracturing the community and don't want that to happen again. (not saying that's what I believe, but I've heard that argument for years).

Not everyone who has a different opinion than you has a phobia, it could be a reasoned concern based on past experience.

Cheers :D
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#60 Rama

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 21:06

Well, I should have said: when IL-2 became of low priority, for them
Not Even. The moding (planes, cockpit, etc…) started as soon as 6 month after release. One year after release, there was so many moding projects that it a site has been built to avoid 2 different third parties to work on the same plane… and the dev allways gave basic support (specifications) for the moding.
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#61 gavagai

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 21:39

Il-2 1946 finally has good AI with 4.11, and without thanks to 1C. Elephant is absolutely correct.
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#62 Rama

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 21:40

Any developer doesn't want to be proven wrong by any amateur enthusiast-> modder!
…I'm sorry, but what I have seen, and many times, is much more "any amateur enthusiast doesn't want to be proven wrong by another amateur enthusiast"…. I've seen that on many forums, including the harsh flame wars between modders of various combat flight sims.

Besides… what does mean "been proven wrong"?… it's just a pure nonsense. devs and third parties all works with using documentation. If they don't get the same result (except when bugs mess the result), it's only because they don't get the same documentation (or the same interpretation of the documentation), and nobody is right or wrong…. because nobody can give a hard proof his documentation/interpretation is better than the other one. Of course I have seen many "amateur" absolutely convinced to "have the truth", which IMO only prove that they never got a "scientific" approach of the problem (which oblige to always doubt of everything, and especially of own beliefs).

If they are not interested in doing certain things, because of no profit expectation,
why not leaving them to the enthusiasts?
Every dev would be perfectly satisfied if third parties are freely building unprofitable obscure parts of the game…. but it never works that way…

Don't get me wrong. I'm absolutely not against mods, and I already said that the problem of RoF modding isn't that the game isn't open (it is), but that the modding support free service doesn't exist because the dev team is too small to provide it.
(and that's the only reason you don't see more mods for RoF).

And something peoples seems not to realize is that modding gets more and more difficult with time and game technology improvement. With CFS1, it was pretty easy to build a plane and include it in the game; with CFS2, it was doable by a single person, but more complicated to have something of acceptable quality (and the gazillion of sub-par models you could download everywhere prove it); with IL2, if you want to build a plane reaching the game quality standard, an expert amateur needed between 6 month and 1 year (if he was not unemployed), and the same for building the cockpit; now, with actual game technology standard, it's no more accessible to lone amateurs. If third party want to mod, they need to build mod groups, with all the difficulties to manage a group with different interest, different expertise, different work-rate, different dedication… and not even talking about egos..
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#63 gavagai

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 21:48

So why doesn't RoF make Criquet's AI pilots default? The vast majority seem to agree that the AI is better with his mod than with default settings. A small improvement is better than no improvement.
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#64 elephant

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 21:59

With "proven wrong" I had in mind the same example used by gavagai…(IL-2 AI).
Developers proven wrong on their claims that something is impossible to do due engine limitations…
Nothing to do with documentation or interpretation of documentation.
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#65 Rama

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 22:04

So why doesn't RoF make Criquet's AI pilots default? The vast majority seem to agree that the AI is better with his mod than with default settings.

Maybe you don't remember that when RoF was released, the AI default settings was much closer to actual Criquet's mod AI setting than today… and that a "vast majority" (at least on this forum) asked to change it…

.. but whatever the reason, where's the problem?? Criquet's mod is available along some other interesting mods, everybody can download and use it (and even modify it) to it's own will and pleasure. Isn't it exactly what everybody here is asking, when advocating for the game to be mod-able (which it is…)?
What you are asking here isn't modding possibilities, but the modification of the stock game according to your desire (and I will not discuss if it's desirable or not)… that's a whole different discussion, and has nothing to do with the title and subject of this thread.
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#66 gavagai

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 23:08

So why doesn't RoF make Criquet's AI pilots default? The vast majority seem to agree that the AI is better with his mod than with default settings.

Maybe you don't remember that when RoF was released, the AI default settings was much closer to actual Criquet's mod AI setting than today… and that a "vast majority" (at least on this forum) asked to change it…

No, not exactly. What people didn't like was that the AI would run away *and then* turn around to snipe from 400-500m. The conjunction makes all the difference.

.. but whatever the reason, where's the problem?? Criquet's mod is available along some other interesting mods, everybody can download and use it (and even modify it) to it's own will and pleasure. Isn't it exactly what everybody here is asking, when advocating for the game to be mod-able (which it is…)?
What you are asking here isn't modding possibilities, but the modification of the stock game according to your desire (and I will not discuss if it's desirable or not)… that's a whole different discussion, and has nothing to do with the title and subject of this thread.

Please, I wish you would not argue that way. It is not a good faith argument to try to suggest that my recommendation is based on a narrow, personal desire. What I recommend is based on what I believe would increase the authenticity of Rise of Flight.

The reason why I and others ask the question is because we do not understand why an opportunity to improve the stock game is passed over when it is available. We ask the question because we still believe that the developers also wish to see greater and greater authenticity; so take it as a compliment that we are so persistent. But when you try to twist the question into something personal about me it doesn't answer the question and leaves us wondering.

I don't see this is as outside the scope of the thread, either. Yes, mods should remain mods if they don't have the potential to improve the experience for everyone, but too often they do have that potential and should seriously be considered for default play.
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#67 Bf-110

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 00:06

Ptobably the phobia resides on the fact people think mods mean "make my plane on steroids so I can pwnz in teh servers".

Depending on the anti-cheat measures used in game and on the servers it can mean exactly that (CFS series comes to mind).

Or perhaps they remember early IL2 mods and blame the modders for fracturing the community and don't want that to happen again. (not saying that's what I believe, but I've heard that argument for years).

Not everyone who has a different opinion than you has a phobia, it could be a reasoned concern based on past experience.

Cheers :D

Hope it isn't purely a matter of clash of egos…
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#68 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 00:12

A better question, why doesn't 777 implement the sector limit for AI gunners? This isn't a matter of a mod or not a mod but rather something that fixes what is currently broken in stock ROF, it's an easy fix obviously but 777 continues to ignore it despite it having been fixed.

Why does it matter when it comes to something like this or the AI mod? Because when people come and play the game for the first time and they see the AI loop around in a downward spiral every time they fight them, it's bad for the game's reputation and may deter people from continuing with the game and as such not buying more planes. Same with the sector limits, especially now that the SE5a can pull back it's lewis and shoot at Two seaters, when you get under that two seater and suddenly you're being blasted through the enemy's tail, that's a pretty crappy experience for a new player and might discourage them from enjoying the game.

That is of course unless they did fix this and I've just been using the mod for no reason all this time, but I don't think that's the case.
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#69 gavagai

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:13

You are correct redpiano. Default DFW gunner still has no sector limits and will fire through the fuselage. The strange thing is that the gunner *does* have sector limits if you use the double parabellum weapon mod.
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#70 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:23

To be honest I don't find Criquets pilots much better than the stock ones. Anything that can't turn or has no rear gunner is dead meat.

Maybe I have it set up wrong but in my French campaign only one AI SPAD pilot scored a victory in over a year and we lost dozens of aircraft to the enemy.

Basically, if you're not flying a turning plane you're screwed in regards to the AI situation which I find to be immensely aggravating.

What's the point in having all these planes if only a handful are effective? Recently, every time I get into combat in this game I end up losing all my enthusiasm for it and quitting to desktop because it's always the same old crap. Indestructible 2-seaters flying at warp speed and gunning down entire formations despite repeated poundings from enemy scouts and one sided dogfights in favour of the best turning fighter.

I hate to moan but it really ticks me off, it's like dating the best looking girl in the world but discoivering she has an IQ of 60.
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#71 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:22

You're not wrong Jimmy but it's better than the stock AI, plus the mod AI doesn't have the lock on sniper accuracy of regular AI, they don't always wound or flame you when they shoot mods on.

I have seen my Spad VII wingmates in a recent campaign get kills as well.
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#72 LukeFF

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:09

So why doesn't RoF make Criquet's AI pilots default?

I've been reassigned to a two seat squadron…
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#73 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:30

Lol, my SPADS only get 'kills' the Japanese way. (Kamikaze) They're the most hapless bunch of virtual pilots to have ever wasted memory on a hard-drive.

Even then, if one or two do make it home they inevitably crash into the hangars on landing (PWCG). Cretins.

Lamenting aside, everything else is top notch.
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#74 Rama

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:56

Please, I wish you would not argue that way. It is not a good faith argument to try to suggest that my recommendation is based on a narrow, personal desire.
Please, I wish you would not twist what I said in order to be able to whine about. (that technique is called "strawman")
I said "your desire", which is noway synonym to "narrow, personal desire", not even implying that this desire isn't shared. I even added "I will not discuss if it's desirable or not", which is clearly indicating that it could be desirable for many, but that was not the point to discuss it in this thread.
If you want a fair discussion, please don't twist what I'm saying.

The reason why I and others ask the question is because we do not understand why an opportunity to improve the stock game is passed over when it is available. We …/…
Even if others share your view (and I agree many do), you're not representing them, so you have no legitimacy to say "we". You and I are only "representing" ourselves.
And again, this question has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, and I no will to share my opinion about this out-of-subject question.

I don't see this is as outside the scope of the thread, either. Yes, mods should remain mods …/…
And the thread subject is "Open Mod's for RoF", and absolutely not "Improving the game by implementing players wishes"…. so even if you don't "see" this as outside the scope of this thread, it is clearly outside the scope.
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#75 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 14:01

Arrgh, Rama!

I just did an ESL teaching course and I so badly want to mark that post and hand it back to you. Impressive English by the way, how long have you been learning?
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#76 Rama

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:02

Never really learned it… and I'm missing a lot of vocabulary.
But I worked in countries where neither French or German were commonly used… had no other choice than to "learn on practice".
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#77 zachanscom

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 18:26

maybe the devs can list some peripheral items they need but won't get around to for a long time and the community can make the models and send it in. with some guidelines(such as file format, dimension, lod levels, texture size, etc), i think this could be productive.
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#78 LukeFF

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 20:15

Rama, for someone who never formally learned English, your posts are very coherent and well-written. It puts some of the native English-speaking posters here to shame. :)
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#79 O_WolfPac

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 20:43

Rama

this quote from your post is true and so perfect.

"And something peoples seems not to realize is that modding gets more and more difficult with time and game technology improvement. With CFS1, it was pretty easy to build a plane and include it in the game; with CFS2, it was doable by a single person, but more complicated to have something of acceptable quality (and the gazillion of sub-par models you could download everywhere prove it); with IL2, if you want to build a plane reaching the game quality standard, an expert amateur needed between 6 month and 1 year (if he was not unemployed), and the same for building the cockpit; now, with actual game technology standard, it's no more accessible to lone amateurs. If third party want to mod, they need to build mod groups, with all the difficulties to manage a group with different interest, different expertise, different work-rate, different dedication.."


i do not think 1 person alone could make plane , time has made the task very complexed.
but you worded the example from the heart
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#80 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 21:48

Planes aren't the only thing that people want from modding, this isn't FSX after all.
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