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Open Mod's for ROF


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#1 Nooney

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:00

Wouldn't it be nice if ROF had the same, open modding policy this sim has http://www.rfactorcentral.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.rfactorcentral.com/ its the only other sim I use regular, the mods are on a strict gotta be free basis, so I suppose that would not help development for 777 studios, or would it increase the sale of the game who knows, (food for argument, as always lol), but there are so many talented, 3D artist, skinners, map makers, imagine the sim ROF could become (although IMO the best at present) but take a look at virtual_LM and the endurance racing pack, all free, how the hell they can do it I don't know, just glad they do :S!:
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#2 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:39

ROF needs static objects. Planes, trucks, cows, whatever. Make them and I am sure they will beincluded granted they meet certain quality criteria.
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#3 elephant

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 15:10

I agree…
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#4 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 15:19

I would love to see more 3rd party (community) content made under strict quality control by 777. If it concerns planes, I'd even pay for it - what, if they wouldn't be worth paying for they wouldn't be worth a place in ROF (though free is always good).

But open mods?

Image
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#5 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 15:36

+1000000000000000 for this post! :D
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#6 Nooney

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 15:39

+1000000000000000 for this post! :D
How many actually is that ???????????? :D
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#7 NewGuy_

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 15:42

I would love to see more 3rd party (community) content made under strict quality control by 777. If it concerns planes, I'd even pay for it - what, if they wouldn't be worth paying for they wouldn't be worth a place in ROF (though free is always good).

But open mods?

Image

Open mods can lead to sub par content. Free certainly does not always mean inferior though. I am sure that this is not what you mean. In some sims, the free ware content exceeds the initial quality, in terms of aesthetics and functionality, the in game content, initially purchased by the customer. High quality freeware adds value to the product, helps enhance the longevity of a title and is all around welcome, provided that the free ware, at least, maintains the initial quality and standard of the content created by the developers. ;)
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#8 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 16:44

There are other things to consider:

- Consistency. Whether the mods are of less or more quality, they will not be consistent. Not with eachother, and not with 777's work.
- Compatibility. I am quite sure that everyone suddenly would have a favourite mod and not want to fly without it. Then there would be conflicting mods: mods that try to achieve the same result in different ways. Some mods (all mods) will be hated my some people and loved by others. How on earth are you going to still fly together in multiplayer when everyone has his favourite mods?

That's right. You turn the whole shitload off and play without them.

- Splitting up the online community. With the above in mind, you'll split up the community in people who play without mods, people who play with certain mods, and people who play with other mods. The community is small enough as it is. It will do more harm than good, and once again, you're better off playing without mods.

- Breaking the current ROF's ease of use. Currently, Rise of Flight is easy to install, easy to update, easy to run. Then in come a whole load of mods, not supported by 777. They could be excellent. Criquet's AI mod is excellent. But in order to use it properly you must delete certain files to stop problems with the two-seaters from occurring. Add in a whole load of other mods all with their own quirks, and you have installation nightmare. All of that without any of the excellent technical support 777 now offers.

- We ALREADY get third party content. Do you really think all the planes we are flying, the single missions in the game, the campaigns we see, are made by sitting members of the 777 dev team? I think you will find that some of the stuff you are enjoying has already been heavily influenced or even made by the people you see on these forums every week. And there are a lot of standing offers that nobody has taken. Re-skin the pilot textures, make a new end-of-map texture…..don't think it ends there. Anything community-made that is worth being included into ROF has a high chance of catching 777's attention…and becoming a default part of Rise of Flight.

- Quality. Again. I don't trust any of you to share my wisdom when I see what's wrong with a mod. That's arrogant, and I'm sure many feel the same way. I know what I like and what I think is good and there are enough instances around me where people disagree with me, to convince me that a lot of crap mods will be used.

Heck, I can't even play Counter-Strike 1.6 any more without the server running some stupid warcraft mod or surfing map or at least those utterly annoying "headshot" and "multikill" sounds.
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#9 J.j.

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 19:27

About 3rd party integration, considering the adventure of Criquet's SPA 161 campaign and this:
Re: Modded map

I'm not so optimistic.
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#10 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 19:30

Well, the career mode will see this:

Many new villages, town and industrial areas added to the map along with windsocks at airfields.

So let's hope corresponding changes to the in-game 2D map are made. If so, it makes sense for them to not go for a 3rd party map but to develop one that corresponds with the changes on the 3D map made.
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#11 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 13:26

I'd love to be able to do some of my own mods and would be very happy to start creating some cows and pigs and horses and sheep for ROF, its just that (I believe) the software required to do anything to the game files cost hundreds of dollars.
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#12 Laser

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:49

Check out sukhoi.ru (use chrome to auto-translate from Russian), there are now some tools to help modding (in mods on of course)
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#13 Zerotown

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 09:20

As for consistency and quality: I think the community will self-regulate. Mods that aren't very good simply won't be used or recommended.
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#14 J2_squid

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 09:41

No the community would not self regulate as seen in some skin submissions. Also it would encourage cheating.

I like it the way it is.
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#15 Nooney

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 10:44

No the community would not self regulate as seen in some skin submissions. Also it would encourage cheating.

I like it the way it is.
I think it would only encourage cheating if only the moder used it, and it was not made available to the community, I think the previous poster was more or less saying, the choice of mods of what to wear and what not would get round the community like wildfire, i.e jonnys McCudden engine mod gives 4HP more, so from Squids point everyone uses it, result no advantage, just another add on, maybe just mod the pretty stuff, i.e nicer trees (cherry trees, silver Birch) Civilians running for cover, observers bailing out, cows, sheep, farm workers waving, all the pretty stuff. :D
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#16 hq_Jorri

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 10:48

Yeah and if people want sheep they'll put in the first sheep that gets modelled, even if it's ported straight out of minecraft. And adding all that stuff through open mods will never be done so that it does not tax the system in an unacceptable way.
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#17 Zerotown

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 07:23

No the community would not self regulate as seen in some skin submissions. Also it would encourage cheating.

Hi J2_squid,

Do you mean that some skin-submissions would be of low quality or completely unrealistic? If so: let me use that example to explain my personal point of view. Imagine a group of players that likes to fly in the most realistic way possible. For each mission, they'd pick planes that were actually in use at the chosen geographical location and time-frame. Also, their planes would use realistically painted skins that would reflect the actual skins used then.

- If this group would fly SP, they'd recommend the best mods to each other and cast aside unrealistic ones.
- If this group would fly MP, they'd kick any gamer of their server that would not adhere to their standards.

Most developers / communities that allow modding, also come up with techniques and to identify cheaters. ROF would have to be no different. Besides, I think modding can lengthen the lifespan of sims greatly. (Look at IL-2, a game that has lasted 10+ years purely because of this). In the end though and despite our personal preferences on the subject, it all comes down to the developer's choice e.g. business model. 777 Studio's will probably not invest in allowing mods if it could (potentially) hurt their flow of revenue. I think their current model works very well, so I don't think we'll be seeing user-made mods soon.
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#18 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 08:33

Rule #1 of engineering:

Do not attempt to repair a working system.
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#19 J2_squid

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 08:56

Do you mean that some skin-submissions would be of low quality or completely unrealistic?

Partly. But what if I decide to make a camel with a more powerful engine? I release it for fun to the community. Now anyone can use it.

More buildings and ground objects would be good, but the current policy is IIRC that if they are good enough they will already be considered for mods off inclusion. Without that barrier its a free for all and the quality and fairness of the game is in jeporady.

Currently If i knew how I could do the same and still anyone would be able to use it but only in mods off mode. So if I want to thats fine, but it cant be used as an exploit in MP or SP unless everyone else decides they agree (fly in mods on mode).

The current system has worked well for 2 years, as Jimmy nicely put it, if its not broken dont fix it.
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#20 Zerotown

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:20

But what if I decide to make a camel with a more powerful engine? I release it for fun to the community. Now anyone can use it.

Indeed, but why exactly would this be bad?

If such a mod would be used by a lone individual in SP, it might allow that person to have some extra kills. Sure, it might not be realistic, but no-one in the community will be hurt. If it is to be used by a group of players, it can only be put into play after the group as a whole decides it is allowed. The group makes this decision based on a set of rules that are, in turn, determined by consensus. This is the self-regulatory system I wrote about in my original post. In this scenario no-one will be hurt either.

That said, I understand and partly support the mechanism that underlies the maxim: "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it". I do think, however, that it is good for a community to explore and discuss new paths. These - in my opinion - could make the sim better or lengthen/broaden it's appeal, without necessarily undermining that which attracted us to it in the first place.
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#21 Nooney

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:28

I agree with if it ain't broke dont fix, but if we all stood still we would still be using wooden spoke wheels on our cars, (also pigeon's would crap on us)
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#22 VonGerlach

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 20:52

Converting existing models to statics is a very quick propostion but the creation of an editor that can place them is not…. it would be nice to have the option of being able to populate the sim with objects that are already in… and a few basic new ones;

Vehicles - transport trucks, horse trains, more Train rolling stock, some varied French engines
Planes - Static planes to populate the airfields
Trenches - lines of troops, troop tents and such to emhance trench and front lines
Structures - houses, stores, buildings of generic types, to make towns and cities more detailed
Ships - Warships and merchants for ports
people - lines of troops, lines of troops in trenches (articulated so they could bend with the trench lines), individuals for towns and cities….and farms
Livestock - cows, sheep, horses
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#23 Stick-95

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 21:25

Although mods can accomplish much, I think having 777 hold onto the reins for inclusion of items makes sense from a QA aspect.

I would love to see more ground items but do not want a big fps hit. Many of you have strafed a column in IL2 and seen the troops running from the vehicles. I would love to see that in ROF maybe with more horse drawn wagons. Never mind having troops along the front. So many possibilities.
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#24 Nooney

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 21:35

Although mods can accomplish much, I think having 777 hold onto the reins for inclusion of items makes sense from a QA aspect.

I would love to see more ground items but do not want a big fps hit. Many of you have strafed a column in IL2 and seen the troops running from the vehicles. I would love to see that in ROF maybe with more horse drawn wagons. Never mind having troops along the front. So many possibilities.
Trouble with horse drawn vehicles, cows and sheep it just leaves us wide open to animal welfare terrorist, joining ROF and painting the sides of houses with slogans, and targeting airdromes with bomber parking sit ins. :lol: :lol:
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#25 zachanscom

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 15:43

ROF needs static objects. Planes, trucks, cows, whatever. Make them and I am sure they will beincluded granted they meet certain quality criteria.

how come no one does this? i thought rise of flight would have a fairly big modding community.

i watch the russian forum and activity seems to have petered out, but in late 2011, they had a burst of activity showcasing some great custom objects(that they somehow figured out how to put into the game aleady) like checkered stands and dog houses(with dogs).

but i think on of the obstacles is that the map is so big, these objects would need to be placed procedurally, no? correct me if i'm wrong, but for the trees in forest, they use a layer mask right? then for cows and sheep, they'd have to write a code dictating spread, navigation route, etc and then marry that to a type of layer mask that can be applied to the info map?
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#26 BADMUTHA

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 17:03

I would love to see more 3rd party (community) content made under strict quality control by 777. If it concerns planes, I'd even pay for it - what, if they wouldn't be worth paying for they wouldn't be worth a place in ROF (though free is always good).

But open mods?

Image

Open mods can lead to sub par content. Free certainly does not always mean inferior though. I am sure that this is not what you mean. In some sims, the free ware content exceeds the initial quality, in terms of aesthetics and functionality, the in game content, initially purchased by the customer. High quality freeware adds value to the product, helps enhance the longevity of a title and is all around welcome, provided that the free ware, at least, maintains the initial quality and standard of the content created by the developers. ;)

What world do you guys come from? Mods lead to sub-par content? Okay then guess what, DON'T USE THAT SUB PAR MOD.

That's the whole damn point of mods, so you can change, improve, alter and customize your experience. It is THE biggest selling point of playing games on the PC for many people, being able to freely change, add, overhaul, alter, improve and general tune the game to your liking is paramount.

You want mods to be regulated by 777? Why so that people can put a bunch of passionate hard work into an item or something and then have it turned down by 777? What nonsense.
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#27 gavagai

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 17:21

+1

Just look at Falcon BMS to see that modded content is often better than the stuff you pay for.
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#28 von_Pilsner

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 21:39

From: http://www.simhq.com...4/air_526a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.simhq.com...4/air_526a.html

Jonas: Both Eagle Dynamics and Maddox Games have announced plans to develop Software Developer Kits (SDKs) for 3rd party developers. 777 Studios also discussed this idea in the past and released some tools. Are there any plans to further develop an SDK?

Albert: From my point of view the community is not ready to work with SDKs in Rise of Flight. We have repeatedly seen on the forum that some work on projects began and didn’t end in anything all that useful to us — we will not spend time on something that does not bring a good result. Some SDK documents are available now, you can write to Jason and tell him what you want to do and show proof you can do it than we will be very happy to see if your skills and professional resume matches what we need.

When everyone is talking about the SDK, it is crucial is to understand what is important, not just the document with some data, it is important to communicate and assist in the development with the help of such a tool. And to understand these documents without our additional help is almost impossible and employees with free time for such helping of SDK understanding [are something that] we do not have now. We are a small studio.

We still hope for a future process that can involve more of the community in such things, but it is proving difficult. Our attempts so far have mostly failed and wasted time.

Feel free to make your models and submit them to 777, but I don't think that open modding is going to happen any time soon.
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#29 zachanscom

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 22:57

could they release some samples so we know how to set things up? or do they want us to make the model in obj format and send it to them?
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#30 LukeFF

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:19

You want mods to be regulated by 777?

Yes, I do, because…

Why so that people can put a bunch of passionate hard work into an item or something and then have it turned down by 777? What nonsense.

…with 777 regulating it, a certain standard of quality would maintained with the game. The only 'nonsense' here is you believing that people passionate about modding would undertake a project with no guidelines at all from 777.
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#31 Dutch2

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:29

From: http://www.simhq.com...4/air_526a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.simhq.com...4/air_526a.html

Jonas: Both Eagle Dynamics and Maddox Games have announced plans to develop Software Developer Kits (SDKs) for 3rd party developers. 777 Studios also discussed this idea in the past and released some tools. Are there any plans to further develop an SDK?

Albert: From my point of view the community is not ready to work with SDKs in Rise of Flight. We have repeatedly seen on the forum that some work on projects began and didn’t end in anything all that useful to us — we will not spend time on something that does not bring a good result. Some SDK documents are available now, you can write to Jason and tell him what you want to do and show proof you can do it than we will be very happy to see if your skills and professional resume matches what we need.

When everyone is talking about the SDK, it is crucial is to understand what is important, not just the document with some data, it is important to communicate and assist in the development with the help of such a tool. And to understand these documents without our additional help is almost impossible and employees with free time for such helping of SDK understanding [are something that] we do not have now. We are a small studio.

We still hope for a future process that can involve more of the community in such things, but it is proving difficult. Our attempts so far have mostly failed and wasted time.

Feel free to make your models and submit them to 777, but I don't think that open modding is going to happen any time soon.

I did read this and sorry to say but to me after reading this, I appears to me, this is a another way to say: we do not want this modding. Fact is they never publish anything about what spec's and what software to use.

But guys do not forget the fact of modding the actual carreer mode, which I think would give lesser inpact on the game and would not interfere to the sales of there own addons.
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#32 Nooney

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:36

Rule #1 of engineering:

Do not attempt to repair a working system.
It don't need repairing just improving, if that advice was followed by humanity, we would still be going on holidays strapped to Orvil wrights plane :x
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#33 Rama

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:37

You want mods to be regulated by 777? Why so that people can put a bunch of passionate hard work into an item or something and then have it turned down by 777? What nonsense.
Of course "official" mods should be regulated by 777 (the ones that are usable in all game mode, with quality engagement, and so tested, corrected if bugged, etc…), as it is for example with the modded campaign. It would be a nonsense to think otherwise.

For the other "quality uncontrolled" mods…. well, the game is actually open to mods: almost all the files are replacables by modded files, which are usable in "mod allowed" game mode.
What the potential modders really wants is not "open modding possibility" (since it's allready the case), but a dev help to modding, consisting of the delivery of comprehensive specfications, comprehensive SDK, tutorial to use them and modders support by FAQ and forum question answering… all this of course as a free service.

The answer given by Albert (as I understand it) is that the team is too small and to busy to built game content to allow ressources to provide this free service.

Now my opinion about your question (Why so that people can put a bunch of passionate hard work into an item or something and then have it turned down by 777?)
Because wanting to improve the game isn't necesseraly equivalent to wanting to escape all quality control. Either a modder wants his work to please a lot of players, and then he should accept that he can make mistakes and that quality control is the only way to improve himself to reach the game standarts and player expectations…. or he only wants to please himself (and don't get me wrong, it's perfectly ok to mod "only for self-pleasure"), and then he should accept that's his mod isn't treated the same way as quality controlled mods.
I remember the gazillion of mods available for CFS1 and CFS2 (including a vast majority of junk stuff)… and I also remember being very pleased that some players provided a service to test the mods and to detect the few ones that were of some interest…. or I would have spent my free time to test the mods instead of playing (if I wanted to try to use the mods).
It's exactly the same today with IL2 mods: gazillion of stuff, mostly unusable if not tested, selected and put in special packs by groups of players (which is a kind of quality control)

Why that?… because passion and hard work is not enough to build quality stuff. Acquiring a work skill is also necessary, and acquiring this skill isn't possible for people refusing external evaluation (aka: quality control).
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#34 gavagai

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:03

I think the question is not about whether someone does quality control, but whether 777 does the quality control.
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#35 Rama

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:22

No, it's not the thread question (and not even redplano's question I was answering about the modder's acceptability of a control), your question is naturally solved:
- For official MP mods, the quality control may only be done by 777. Other then that, you will have the game spared between different auto-proclamed "quality-control" churches. This is the only way to ensure the game unicity… and besides, the game is owned by 777, so they are the only legitimated to do so.
- For unofficial mods, the quality control isn't a necessity (can be useful if done by groups of players, but can't be an obligation).

The real question is the possibility for the dev to offer, or not, the modding support free service.
And IMHO the only answer to this question is a solution (or the absence of solution) to finance this service.
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#36 BADMUTHA

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:31

Multiplayer mods aren't what I'm talking about, if you want to have 777 choose what gets to become an "official mod" for use in multiplayer then sure that sounds fine, as long people who play Bcareer and PWCG are allowed to download and play whatever mods they want without having it certified by 777 first.

So long as it doesn't affect anyone else I should be fully within my rights to download and use whatever mods I want.
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#37 Rama

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:37

So long as it doesn't affect anyone else I should be fully within my rights to download and use whatever mods I want.
Certainly.

But mods wont auto-generate just because you're free to use them (and you are).
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#38 BADMUTHA

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:43

Of course, but given the proper tools that it seems we don't have still the people that are already trying to make mods like Gav and Avi could maybe do much more if allowed to alter files that affect say dispersion and things of that nature or say the number of hits it takes to kill a pilot; both of which are currently restricted.

Then if we got actual dev tools the possibilities open up even further, tweaked flight models? How great it would be if users could tweak the flight models, allowing SP users to use them freely and then submit them to 777 to review and possibly implement officially instead of wasting time themselves doing all the work.
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#39 Dutch2

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:51

Control by 777 is a good point, but what are the rules here? Sorry to write this down but why is 777 not saying we do not like to see modding and we are blocking this. So it is clear for all.
Now without showing the conditions modders should act to and judgement based on secrit rules, it is al to misty.
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#40 BADMUTHA

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:53

Regulating mods for PVP play, is absolutely a good point.

Regulating mods for single player is a good way to deter anyone from giving a damn about your mod tools.
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