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Best Joystick for RoF - doesn't have to be the cheapest!!


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#41 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:46

Don't pick on him he a use car saleman in his other life.
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#42 Josh_Echo

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:51

The CH Pedals have rubber feet on them that will keep them right in place on a hard flat surface. You have to push them really hard to get them to slide around.

Mine are on a hard flat surface. Unpolished wood, in fact. Can't get a more friction-rife surface than that, for a floor. And yet even with unpolished hardwood, the CH pedals are constantly creeping if they aren't against a wall or something. Not drastic movements, but slowly over time. Being off-center even a tiny bit badly hurts one's ability to quickly make finely precise motions.

And again, I hate to say it, but your opinion on CH's build quality and ergonomics is very much in the minority. Otherwise, CH would not keep selling them successfully if the majority of users found them to be mechanically unreliable and ergonomically uncomfortable.

Sixteen million World of Warcraft players can't be wrong, hey? To say nothing of McDonalds and Brittney Spears and …

Not at all, unless you find waiting a couple of weeks for them to arrive to be a nightmare.

Not at all. The issues my friend is going through include a lack of proper communication, bizarre payment methods, and unauthorized account charges. I used to tentatively recommend Simped as the best pedal choice based on my research and the experiences of Peter Zvan (at whose hands I have virtually died hundreds of times, and who has used much of the equipment which I have used), but after hearing what a non-European resident has to go through to get them, I no longer can in honesty.

I myself have long wanted the Thrusmaster Warthog joystick and Simped pedal combination, and I've had nothing but good experiences with Thrustmaster so far, but I'm now looking at Saitek's pedals as an alternative to Simped. If the Simped's maker is going to put foreigners through this ordeal, I'd rather have a pair of slightly-less-excellent pedals from a maker who is reasonable in his business practices.

Don't pick on him he a use car saleman in his other life.

I must say, I really ought to be getting a commission for this. I think they don't want to pay me because I do point out the few negatives as well as the overwhelming positives.
: (
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#43 LukeFF

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:21

Mine are on a hard flat surface. Unpolished wood, in fact. Can't get a more friction-rife surface than that, for a floor. And yet even with unpolished hardwood, the CH pedals are constantly creeping if they aren't against a wall or something. Not drastic movements, but slowly over time. Being off-center even a tiny bit badly hurts one's ability to quickly make finely precise motions.

I dunno what to say, then. Mine would not move at_all, and I had nothing securing them to the floor, other than rubber feet on the bottom.

Sixteen million World of Warcraft players can't be wrong, hey? To say nothing of McDonalds and Brittney Spears and …

Er, uh…OK?

Like I said, if CH's controllers were viewed as junk by the majority of people who bought them, that would've been made known a long time ago. CH can't obviously please everyone with what they sell, but obviously they're pleasing enough people to warrant the continued production and sales of them.

Not at all. The issues my friend is going through include a lack of proper communication, bizarre payment methods, and unauthorized account charges. I used to tentatively recommend Simped as the best pedal choice based on my research and the experiences of Peter Zvan (at whose hands I have virtually died hundreds of times, and who has used much of the equipment which I have used), but after hearing what a non-European resident has to go through to get them, I no longer can in honesty.

Mr. Hoffmann (the maker and seller of Simpeds) offers two forms of payment: bank transfer or PayPal. Nothing odd, bizarre, or earth-shattering in this day and age of e-commerce. I paid for mine by PayPal and had them in my hands about 3 weeks later (this was back in February of this year). True, his communication is not always the best, but I wasn't going to prevent that from me buying them (and enjoying them very much).

I'd suggest getting more than one opinion from "a non-European resident" before deciding on buying / not buying a particular piece of hardware. ;)
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#44 O_Taipan

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 07:40

I had CH Fighterstick, it was precise for the first 2-3 years then halfway through my ROF time it started becoming innaccurate, probably due to my major abuse throwing it around wildly, unlike the tight precise micro movements I used to make in DCS blackshark, my Fighterstick was undergoing some pain.

Then when the trackir/ffb/win7 bug was fixed in 1.016 I tried out my old MS FFB2, which although lacking buttons was actually quite fun. The force feedback is very enjoyable in ROF. However it was not more accurate than CH, and also contrary to what others say I did not find the FFB gave me a significant advantage in avoiding stalls/spins. There are warnings in the wing drop, sound effects etc already and you get used to the planes anyway. But alas, my love of DCS and Lockon continued and FFB2 did not have enough buttons. So I looked into the Warthog.

After some initial pain in learning the warthog software script (after CH software be prepared for a WEEK of learning and programming before you can fly), I absolutely loved the stick. It feels SEXY, yes you might get the wrong impression but I love using it so much that I stopped playing all non-flight sim games because I couldn't use the warthog. If you like ClOD though, there is a lack of Rotaries. ROF however does not need rotaries at all except for radiator (the only thing you need to move all the way quickly besides throttle). I reviewed my warthog here: http://www.oceanicwi...php?topic=384.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oceanicwi...om/Forum/Main/i … opic=384.0

I've never tried the G940, but after all the fixes/firmware etc I hear nothing but good things. If I was on a budget or if I didn't have pedals, I would definitely give the G940 a try. But since I already had Simpeds, and I love DCS as well, the next logical step for me was a Warthog for an All-Hall-Sensor setup, i.e. no more wear and tear.

The G940 does offer the advantage of additional rotaries plus FFB over the warthog. But the Warthog offers more in terms of long term quality, and in accuracy of the stick.. plus the SEXY factor :P

As for simpeds, they are fantastic except for the toe brakes. The toe brakes are so sensitive they are almost on/off only, and they're not needed in ROF anyway. They do work well in DCS though but I haven't tried them in CloD as the spitfire toe brake axis was still bugged last time I tried, I can't be bothered with CloD it's so screwed up and ROF is just so great and seamless in comparison. If you don't need CloD toe brakes, then just use a button and get the regular USB simpeds. You won't need the hardware curve option either, it's always better to fly without a curve, they are as wide as real airplane pedals so why use a curve?

When I ordered Simpeds from Australia, there was no paypal option and I was paying extra bank fees etc, but flying DCS black shark- rudder is more important than stick for helicopters. So I did it with gritted teeth and when my wife wasn't looking at the bank statement :o Communication was ok via email but I did have to do tricky bank drafts etc. Paypal should solve all that now I guess. You would be better off asking any friends in Germany to order for you and send if you can though, in hindsight I should have asked my German work buddy.
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#45 unknwn

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:43

I've also used a Saitek X-52. Not a bad stick but not a good one. The comfort is great, button placement is good, and the twist lock on the rudder is nice for us pedal users, and pretty much everything about the X-52 is good except for the precision. Center precision is mediocre at best. Not as bad as the Logitech sticks I've used or the CH Yoke, but many times worse than the CH Combat Stick and the T-16000M. Since precision is such a critical element, that turns a good stick into a "meh" stick. My daily gunnery stats in R.o.F. increased ~250% within one day of my switching from the X-52 to the Combat Stick.
You mentioned your saitek had a bad center precision. Was your x52 modded? And how old it was, because first models had a deadzone in the center. Also x52/pro gives diamond form output when you make circles with your joystick (unless it is fixed in the newest models). That's why magnet mod is a must.
Mine modded x52 has quite good center and overall precision. It has a few millimeters of wobbly zone in the centering construction, but output is still shown when moving joystick in this zone.

The biggest problem with this stick was that it could randomly loose its calibration. Imagine that you are diving with Dora at top speed and joystick looses its calibration. Immediately it calibrates itself in the position where your stick was(saitek auto calibration). Now your plane goes at full speed to the ground even though stick is pushed back to the physical center. You can also add some roll to give more effect to this example. :P
However this was fixed when i connected x52 to usb hub on my monitor. It took some time until i tried this fix.
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#46 Josh_Echo

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:02

You mentioned your saitek had a bad center precision. Was your x52 modded?

No. I review how they are out-of-the-box. It would be dishonest to tell people that it's a good stick, if it's only a good stick because I modified it.

When I ordered Simpeds from Australia, there was no paypal option and I was paying extra bank fees etc, but flying DCS black shark- rudder is more important than stick for helicopters. So I did it with gritted teeth and when my wife wasn't looking at the bank statement :o Communication was ok via email but I did have to do tricky bank drafts etc. Paypal should solve all that now I guess.

The Simped guy refused to do Paypal to the U.S.A. The only option for an American is bank draft. My friend had to pay a $40 bank fee, and while he was waiting for the process to complete, the dollar fell relative to the Euro and so he ended up having to pay $300 + 40 instead of $280 + 40. Or something like that. Part of this was because of the Simped guy's failure to respond to e-mails in a timely fashion.

Other assorted bullshit includes my friend's bank screwing up and charging him for 340 Euro instead of 340 dollars, but that's the bank's fault and not Simped's. Still, one more reason why this hassle is looking less and less worth the extra quality on the Simped. As for me, I've wanted Simpeds for a long time, but now that I know about the hell Americans get dragged through to get them, I think I'm going to settle for Siatek pedals and just grit my teeth at the potentiometer crap. (Cost a third of the price, too.)
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#47 unknwn

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 00:23

You mentioned your saitek had a bad center precision. Was your x52 modded?
No. I review how they are out-of-the-box. It would be dishonest to tell people that it's a good stick, if it's only a good stick because I modified it.
I don't see how it is dishonest unless you tell them it is a good stick without mentioning a mod. It takes 5-10min to apply mod which solves magnet placement for halo sensors. Drawback is that you may loose your guarantee. I bought x52 with this issue in mind and applied mod suddenly after basic testing. However i wouldn't recommend this stick for combat simulation without planning to apply this mod.
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#48 O_Taipan

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:56

Josh the situation was similar for me, however no delays.. My bank also didn't stuff up so I guess I had it easier.

The exchange rate can go either way it could have gone favorably, but just a bad situation your friend had, everything went wrong at once.

You may be let down if you're expecting too much, in the end the simpeds come and at first you wonder why they cost so much because they look fairly cheap, almost home-made even! Very simple construction.

But then when you use them especially as a tall person with long legs, it's very nice. No one else makes such wide rudder pedals that I know of and it's a shame.

They don't seem that hard to make, it's just not a big enough market I guess.
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#49 Josh_Echo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 06:44

Saitek makes two different pairs with a distance apart similar to Simped's, but I don't think that the Saitek are quite as good in general. For one thing, they have potentiometers and not Hall sensors. But I've never used any of them.
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#50 LukeFF

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:55

The Simped guy refused to do Paypal to the U.S.A. The only option for an American is bank draft.

That is flat out incorrect. Would you like to explain how I paid for my Simpeds with PayPal this past January? Here's a screenshot of my PayPal transcation (the bottom one dated January 30):

Attached File  PayPalSimpeds.jpg   232.08KB   289 downloads

Now, who's right or wrong here?

Still, one more reason why this hassle is looking less and less worth the extra quality on the Simped. As for me, I've wanted Simpeds for a long time, but now that I know about the hell Americans get dragged through to get them, I think I'm going to settle for Siatek pedals and just grit my teeth at the potentiometer crap. (Cost a third of the price, too.)

Please, spare us the drama. Americans, including myself, have been and are buying Simpeds without any issues. But hey, it's your money. Don't let my good experience with Simpeds keep you from buying them. ;)
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#51 Josh_Echo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:59

That is flat out incorrect. Would you like to explain how I paid for my Simpeds with PayPal this past January?

I don't recall making any claims about whether or not he accepted Paypal last January. I'm talking about what he told my friend a week ago. Why the hell would I make something like this up.
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#52 Capt.OReilly

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 19:55

OK - as the OP may I bring this slightly back on-topic? ;)

Following the advice from many of you - & thanks to all who contributed by the way - I bought an FFB2 from FleaBay for £30. Arrived this afternoon & just spent a couple of hours configuring it.

First impressions are good - much more feel than the HOTAS X & seems far more accurate. Never having used an FF stick before I found it quite interesting having the entire desk vibrating on the take-off run! I also like the feel of the pre-stall buffet, all helps add to the immersion.

Busy weekend coming up, so not going to get much of a chance to try it out, but on initial performance, I think that I am going to be pleased with this acquisition.

TrackIR 5 arriving next week - I can't wait until my wife sees me wearing that!!! :D
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#53 catchov

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 23:59

That is flat out incorrect. Would you like to explain how I paid for my Simpeds with PayPal this past January?

I don't recall making any claims about whether or not he accepted Paypal last January. I'm talking about what he told my friend a week ago. Why the hell would I make something like this up.

Maybe your friend is spinning bullshit to make you look stupid. Or maybe the Simped guy is tired of jerks. Who knows the real truth. It's spooky :?
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#54 Josh_Echo

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 00:07

maybe the Simped guy is tired of jerks

Yes, how dare we not know proper Deutsche!
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#55 charlo

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:23

TrackIR 5 arriving next week - I can't wait until my wife sees me wearing that!!! :D

Speaking from personal experience with my own wife, yours will chuckle every time she sees you wearing the hat with the reflector clips. :D

Charlo
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Intel Core i7-6700K Skylake OC @ 4.8 GHz | Corsair Hydro H70 CWCH70 CPU Cooler with two Noctua NF-F12 PWM 120mm fans | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS VIII HERO motherboard | EVGA Titan X Hybrid GPU | G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 Series 32GB DDR4 3000 F4-3000C15Q-32GRK RAM | Samsung 840 EVO 500GB SSD | CoolerMaster HAF 932 ATX Full Tower case |SeaSonic Snow Silent 750W Power Supply | Acer B6 Series B286HK ymjdpprz 28" 4K UHD (3840 x 2160) Monitor | Windows 10 Pro | CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Throttle Quadrant, CH Pro pedals, CH MFP, Track IR 5, Buttkicker Gamer 2 | ====== My original ROF rig (now used by visiting gunners): MacBook Pro Core2Duo 2.66 GHz | 8 GBs RAM | NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT 512 MB GPU

#56 Toadvine

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 14:15

Okay you guys, after reading this thread over I went ahead and ordered a used Sidewinder FFB 2 off Amazon. It was listed as like new with power cord and installation software. $62 USD shipped. Replacing ( or adding to ) my Thrustmaster T 16000M which is fine, very good stick, but has no force feedback. The Logitech 3D pro it replaced did have FF and I have been missing that feature.

Maybe some day I will invest in pedals.
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#57 Capt.OReilly

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 18:24

Okay you guys, after reading this thread over I went ahead and ordered a used Sidewinder FFB 2 off Amazon

Good choice - I don't think that you will regret it.
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#58 W1ndy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 20:18

Okay you guys, after reading this thread over I went ahead and ordered a used Sidewinder FFB 2 off Amazon

Good choice - I don't think that you will regret it.

Captain, how are you liking your TrackIR ??? . That in combo with the FF2 is the way to go Ithink
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#59 Josh_Echo

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 23:03

Never having used an FF stick before I found it quite interesting having the entire desk vibrating on the take-off run!

This is the sort of reason I loathe Force Feedback. The stick should not vibrate from the bumps on the ground. A real aircraft's stick is not linked to the wheels; it is linked to the elevator and ailerons, which do not come into contact with the ground during takeoff. Force Feedback rattles around far more often than it should. I never experienced any stick/yoke vibration when flying real airplanes in most of the conditions under which a Force Feedback joystick shakes around.

Granted, some airplanes are designed in such a manner that there will be more or less stick vibration than others in a given condition, but there are certain circumstances where no aircraft will have stick vibration, and it's pretty simple to figure out most of these with a rudimentary understanding of motion physics. Unfortunately, the makers of Force Feedback joysticks have no such understanding (or else they ignore it because they realize that most of their customers do not).

Force Feedback joysticks also shake around too much. Real aircraft stick vibrations are extremely subtle, not a crazy jerking around. Additionally, there is another huge problem; in a real aircraft, the disrupted airflow vibrates the control surfaces, which vibrates the stick. However, in a simulator while using a Force Feedback joystick, it's the exact opposite; the shaking stick shakes the control surfaces, which disrupts the airflow. The result of these discrepancies is that in a real aircraft, stick feedback helps you dance the stall, while using Force Feedback in a simulator, it actually hampers your ability to dance the stall (to a degree—I understand that it also helps, at least if the user doesn't already know exactly where max Alpha is).
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#60 O_Taipan

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 00:18

I was thinking similar, when I was new the FFB helped me, now I'm used to the planes more I don't need it.
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#61 hq_Honeymonster

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 00:40

Again I think this is personal preference and this is such an old argument…..

The MSFFB2 is a very well built and very accurate stick available at a very reasonable price. It is also completely different in its lay out and operation to the cheap spring FFB sticks.

Josh did you not say yourself you have never tried a MSFFB2?

I really do not think it is wise to base your whole opinion of FFB sticks on what I also agree is a poor logitech experience. And while they may not be particularly realistic just like this and any other computer game, some people enjoy the experience and find it beneficial.

I find it strange that the ROF team would recommend this stick if it was not a good option…
Lets also not get on to the hall sensor subject unless someone can genuinely prove their hand is more accurate than a precision pot in good condition. Also lets remember there would probably have been plenty of slop in the linkages of most WW1 planes. So what are you after realism or precision?

Once again I feel this whole thing is going round in circles without making any real progress.
I think the best recommendation to anyone is try before you buy. If you're happy that's all that really matters. Different horses for different courses.



Cheers
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#62 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:39

Never having used an FF stick before I found it quite interesting having the entire desk vibrating on the take-off run!

This is the sort of reason I loathe Force Feedback. The stick should not vibrate from the bumps on the ground. A real aircraft's stick is not linked to the wheels; it is linked to the elevator and ailerons, which do not come into contact with the ground during takeoff. Force Feedback rattles around far more often than it should. I never experienced any stick/yoke vibration when flying real airplanes in most of the conditions under which a Force Feedback joystick shakes around.

Granted, some airplanes are designed in such a manner that there will be more or less stick vibration than others in a given condition, but there are certain circumstances where no aircraft will have stick vibration, and it's pretty simple to figure out most of these with a rudimentary understanding of motion physics. Unfortunately, the makers of Force Feedback joysticks have no such understanding (or else they ignore it because they realize that most of their customers do not).

Force Feedback joysticks also shake around too much. Real aircraft stick vibrations are extremely subtle, not a crazy jerking around. Additionally, there is another huge problem; in a real aircraft, the disrupted airflow vibrates the control surfaces, which vibrates the stick. However, in a simulator while using a Force Feedback joystick, it's the exact opposite; the shaking stick shakes the control surfaces, which disrupts the airflow. The result of these discrepancies is that in a real aircraft, stick feedback helps you dance the stall, while using Force Feedback in a simulator, it actually hampers your ability to dance the stall (to a degree—I understand that it also helps, at least if the user doesn't already know exactly where max Alpha is).

Josh I've told you before 'shake' and force-feedback are separate issues, things and settings.

I have shake down low so I can feel the bumps (as you would through the seat in a real aircraft) and so get a judder from firing the guns -which although maybe not massively realistic I like. Obviously it would be more realistic to have the seat shake and the stick feedback (trust me you do feel bumps through a stick when taxiing on a grass field as you bumps in a car through the steering wheel)

Force feedback is the control surfaces feeding back whether by means of resistance or no resistance and as such model what it is to fly a plane. A stall is demonstrated by lack of authority in the ailerons/control surfaces - you may remember in one of our duels last week I lost you because I was checking the wing to makes sure the aileron was not torn off? This is because I was close to a stall and had lost authority in it- there was no stall horn or buffet to warn me of this - incidentally some planes do buffet depending on which part of the wing is stalling.

You are writing off force feedback sticks as bad and unrealistic when what you don't like is vibration or 'shake' - two different things and completely separately calibrated.

You shouldn't have to be told this already and then re-state a stupid mis-founded opinion again - it's rude it shows you either don't read or just ignore other people's posts that you don't like. Grow up and only comment on things that you have direct experience of - you will notice that I don't comment on skydiving threads, threads about cats, or details about German plane markings etc etc as I know nothing about them - I'd suggest you do the same thing.

A quick sanity check - "Do I know anything other than hearsay, conjecture and my own opinion about this subject?" "No." - " Ok then I won't comment"

It seems that the statement of "You don't know what you don't know" has never been truer than in your forum posts- which is a shame as you are a genuinely nice guy and very knowledgable about a lot of things to do with this sim and very helpful to a lot of people but you undermine it with boneheaded comments in other areas that you know next to nothing about.

Rant over. :S!:
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#63 Capt.OReilly

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 07:16

Captain, how are you liking your TrackIR ??? . That in combo with the FF2 is the way to go I think

Hasn't arrived yet, and unfortunately I'm going away on business so it will be Wednesday evening before I get a chance to install it.

Having watched a few vids of it in action I am looking forward to giving it a try & seeing how it improves the experience.
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#64 wrong_name_1159

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:25

It's probably been mentioned already, but if not… whatever you do, don't use the default TrackIR profile for RoF. While I find it fine for most games, RoF does not have the same "sensitivity" on the X and Y axes for looking around and the end result is that you can't look straight up without a lot of difficulty. I created a custom profile that modified the pitch curve in the TrackIR software to be far more sensitive when looking up and with less smoothing to reduce the "laggy" feeling. So now the software shows me as able to have my head literally looking behind me (35 or so degrees of real world pitch now translates to about 200 in the software), which is interpreted by RoF as being about 100 degrees. It will stop you tilting back any more than 90 degrees, but that little bit extra gives you a buffer to be able to then turn your head without the sensors losing you.

I believe that a few people have posted their own profiles which you may find easier to do than modifying your own. I have no idea how good they are, but considering the skill of the people who posted them, there's a pretty good chance they're not terrible. ;)
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#65 Capt.OReilly

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:38

It's probably been mentioned already, but if not… whatever you do, don't use the default TrackIR profile for RoF. While I find it fine for most games, RoF does not have the same "sensitivity" on the X and Y axes for looking around and the end result is that you can't look straight up without a lot of difficulty. I created a custom profile that modified the pitch curve in the TrackIR software to be far more sensitive when looking up and with less smoothing to reduce the "laggy" feeling. So now the software shows me as able to have my head literally looking behind me (35 or so degrees of real world pitch now translates to about 200 in the software), which is interpreted by RoF as being about 100 degrees. It will stop you tilting back any more than 90 degrees, but that little bit extra gives you a buffer to be able to then turn your head without the sensors losing you.

I believe that a few people have posted their own profiles which you may find easier to do than modifying your own. I have no idea how good they are, but considering the skill of the people who posted them, there's a pretty good chance they're not terrible. ;)

Thanks for that - I'll go & see what's available! :S!:
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#66 catchov

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:17

Never having used an FF stick before I found it quite interesting having the entire desk vibrating on the take-off run!

This is the sort of reason I loathe Force Feedback. The stick should not vibrate from the bumps on the ground. A real aircraft's stick is not linked to the wheels; it is linked to the elevator and ailerons, which do not come into contact with the ground during takeoff. Force Feedback rattles around far more often than it should. I never experienced any stick/yoke vibration when flying real airplanes in most of the conditions under which a Force Feedback joystick shakes around.

Granted, some airplanes are designed in such a manner that there will be more or less stick vibration than others in a given condition, but there are certain circumstances where no aircraft will have stick vibration, and it's pretty simple to figure out most of these with a rudimentary understanding of motion physics. Unfortunately, the makers of Force Feedback joysticks have no such understanding (or else they ignore it because they realize that most of their customers do not).

Force Feedback joysticks also shake around too much. Real aircraft stick vibrations are extremely subtle, not a crazy jerking around. Additionally, there is another huge problem; in a real aircraft, the disrupted airflow vibrates the control surfaces, which vibrates the stick. However, in a simulator while using a Force Feedback joystick, it's the exact opposite; the shaking stick shakes the control surfaces, which disrupts the airflow. The result of these discrepancies is that in a real aircraft, stick feedback helps you dance the stall, while using Force Feedback in a simulator, it actually hampers your ability to dance the stall (to a degree—I understand that it also helps, at least if the user doesn't already know exactly where max Alpha is).

Josh I've told you before 'shake' and force-feedback are separate issues, things and settings.

I have shake down low so I can feel the bumps (as you would through the seat in a real aircraft) and so get a judder from firing the guns -which although maybe not massively realistic I like. Obviously it would be more realistic to have the seat shake and the stick feedback (trust me you do feel bumps through a stick when taxiing on a grass field as you bumps in a car through the steering wheel)

Force feedback is the control surfaces feeding back whether by means of resistance or no resistance and as such model what it is to fly a plane. A stall is demonstrated by lack of authority in the ailerons/control surfaces - you may remember in one of our duels last week I lost you because I was checking the wing to makes sure the aileron was not torn off? This is because I was close to a stall and had lost authority in it- there was no stall horn or buffet to warn me of this - incidentally some planes do buffet depending on which part of the wing is stalling.

You are writing off force feedback sticks as bad and unrealistic when what you don't like is vibration or 'shake' - two different things and completely separately calibrated.

You shouldn't have to be told this already and then re-state a stupid mis-founded opinion again - it's rude it shows you either don't read or just ignore other people's posts that you don't like. Grow up and only comment on things that you have direct experience of - you will notice that I don't comment on skydiving threads, threads about cats, or details about German plane markings etc etc as I know nothing about them - I'd suggest you do the same thing.

A quick sanity check - "Do I know anything other than hearsay, conjecture and my own opinion about this subject?" "No." - " Ok then I won't comment"

It seems that the statement of "You don't know what you don't know" has never been truer than in your forum posts- which is a shame as you are a genuinely nice guy and very knowledgable about a lot of things to do with this sim and very helpful to a lot of people but you undermine it with boneheaded comments in other areas that you know next to nothing about.

Rant over. :S!:


Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed to so many by Cundall :) I am, not surprisingly, in complete agreement.

You have taken the very words right out of my mouth saving me much time :S!:
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#67 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:52

In ROF there is a "Force" and a "Shake" setting. Both are part of Force Feedback. I believe the former setting controls the "Condition Force Effects" the latter controls the "Periodic Force Effects".

"Condition Force Effects" in ROF are used to simulate airflow over the control surfaces and the effect dampens the stick input to simulate the air resisting control surface movement etc. On the ground without an engine, stick forces are not present.

I have told you this before Josh, I guess you don't really care, but you can set "shake" to 0 and turn off any vibration from the stick, even though Tom is telling you that they are not that unrealistic.

I have been playing ROF with shake = 0 for years now because I don't like the machine gun vibrations myself but I used Force 0.8 with my Cyborg 3D Force and now 0.4 with the FFB2.
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#68 Josh_Echo

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:19

I guess you don't really care

Incorrect assumption.
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#69 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:50

By repeating your false assumptions about FFB it seems you only care about raging about FFB :)


Btw, little correction, the shake is not nessesarily an FFB effect but one that is supported by all FFB hardware, however there are the "rumble" controllers that can shake but do not have FFB. So the tensions/dampen effects of FFB hardware is exactly what makes it FFB.
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#70 Josh_Echo

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 13:04

I don't have any big beef with the "Force" setting you described; I do have a quarrel with the "Shake" setting. Which is exactly what I was responding to, if you'll look back—someone implied that the shake is a good thing.
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#71 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 13:07

"An error only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it" -JFK

"Never reinforce failure"

Stop arguing pedantically and admit defeat Josh you made an error, man up, admit it and move on. Don't turn it into a mistake.
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#72 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 13:12

I don't have any big beef with the "Force" setting you described; I do have a quarrel with the "Shake" setting. Which is exactly what I was responding to, if you'll look back—someone implied that the shake is a good thing.

Luckily, only very few sticks only offer Force Vibration rather than full Force Feedback. Here, you're entering the very sad world of Speedlink and Sweex joysticks. Stay far, far away :S!: .

(been there, done that…..was able to return the stick, though! Long time ago….)
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#73 Josh_Echo

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 13:17

Looking back through my inciting post, the only potential error I can see is this:

The stick should not vibrate from the bumps on the ground. A real aircraft's stick is not linked to the wheels; it is linked to the elevator and ailerons, which do not come into contact with the ground during takeoff.

While I've landed a real aircraft (and recall feeling no jerk in the yoke from the wheels coming into contact with the ground), I've never taxied a real aircraft over rough grass. Therefore, I suppose I am not qualified to make such a statement as the one I've quoted here.
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#74 LukeFF

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 08:56

I don't recall making any claims about whether or not he accepted Paypal last January. I'm talking about what he told my friend a week ago. Why the hell would I make something like this up.

Sorry, but this friend of yours doesn't have a clue. Again:

Attached File  DHS.jpg   265.94KB   344 downloads

North American delivery option, PayPal. Exact_same_payment_options I had when I ordered mine.
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#75 Josh_Echo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:35

this friend of yours doesn't have a clue.

Wrong. A couple of days ago, the German fellow responded to my friend's e-mail about the bank error, saying that he could use Paypal now. Of course, it was too late, as the bank draft had already been processed and the $40 fee paid.

I don't know why, but there was a period of time where Simped's maker was not accepting Paypal from the U.S.A. My friend's order occurred during this time, as did my initial post warning of the difficulties.

Just because your experience differed does not mean that my friend is fabricating a story about his. Just because Simped was accepting Paypal five months ago and is accepting Paypal today does not mean that he was accepting it two weeks ago.

It would have been nice for the Simped guy to have given some sort of explanation, but whatever …
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#76 EclecticRazor

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 18:00

I don't recall making any claims about whether or not he accepted Paypal last January. I'm talking about what he told my friend a week ago. Why the hell would I make something like this up.

Sorry, but this friend of yours doesn't have a clue. Again:



North American delivery option, PayPal. Exact_same_payment_options I had when I ordered mine.

LukeFF,

You are being presumptious. For whatever reason, Oliver Lehman (SimPed Reseller) notified me that PayPal was not working for USA purchases and suggested that I could still use a bank draft for the SimPeds. Whether this was a temporary problem that has since been fixed is irrelevant. I doubt he would have declined my attempt to purchase through PayPal if it were working properly at the time.

It appears that my timing was poor (PayPal problems at Seller's Point), my bank was ignorant (Sending Euros after having specified US Dollars) and now, LukeFF, you are accusing me of being clueless. This experience just seems to be getting better every day.

I wish I could have had the good fortune of a smooth and pleasant buying experience such as your own. Don't equate what happened to you as universal - even Taipan stated that he wasn't able to use PayPal in Australia and had to use a Bank Draft. I guess your definition would mean that if PayPal now works for Australia that Taipan would be clueless too.

Before accusing someone else of not having a clue - maybe you should ask if this is an assumption on your part (which this was) and whether your accusation may be a more appropriate description of yourself (which it is).

I know this is too much to expect, but it would be nice for people to restrain from making blanket assumptions based on an incomplete understanding of the subject at hand. If you can keep your mouth closed it is much easier to keep your foot from filling it.
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#77 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 18:17

I know this is too much to expect, but it would be nice for people to restrain from making blanket assumptions based on an incomplete understanding of the subject at hand. If you can keep your mouth closed it is much easier to keep your foot from filling it.


This can work both ways Razor - in this case Josh may be in the right, but equally he has done this exact thing a number of times.

Just saying for the sake of fairness.
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#78 EclecticRazor

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 19:42

I know this is too much to expect, but it would be nice for people to restrain from making blanket assumptions based on an incomplete understanding of the subject at hand. If you can keep your mouth closed it is much easier to keep your foot from filling it.


This can work both ways Razor - in this case Josh may be in the right, but equally he has done this exact thing a number of times.

Just saying for the sake of fairness.

Maybe a better choice would have been to point-out the people who had flung inflammatory remarks around and note how many of them have "done this exact thing a number of times".
I didn't address whether Josh is right or wrong, whether I agree or disagree with him - rather, I referred to a venomous comment which was intended to continue a flamefest.

I really don't give a flying-f*ck who prefers what type of Joystick - what I care about is the fact that insults are have become the focus of this thread. For the sake of this forum this thread needs to die. Everything degrades after the 4th page, becoming a bashing bandwagon and irrelevant to the simple OP request for suggestions.
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#79 catchov

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:04

Yeah I aqree this is really stupid. Is Josh your mouthpiece Razor ? Why didn't you jump in straightaway instead of letting it drag on with Josh continually referring to "my friend". Are you playing games ?

And as long as Josh acts like a pompous twit he will attract negative comments.
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#80 Josh_Echo

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:16

Is Josh your mouthpiece Razor ?

No. I was trying to prevent someone else from going through the crazy crap that Razor went through. Since pretty much most everyone here is an [insert term here], it looks like I was wasting my time. I won't make that mistake again. I'm done trying to help people who just throw poo in my face. Echo out.
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