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POLL: Tom-Cundall's personal Sopwith Pup Skin


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36 replies to this topic

#1 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
  • Posts: 5549

Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:14

This is a Pup kindly made for me by Imperator and loosely based on 46 Sqn RFC scheme.

Image

Image

View of the port side showing repaired battle damage on the fuselage (linen doped patch) and upper port longeron (PC10 aileron replacement missing bottom of the roundel).

Image

Download here:

http://www.mediafire...rz9wjd47sa8qdzh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...rz9wjd47sa8qdzh

Please feel free to comment but do bear in mind that Imperator has spent a lot of time on this skin and as such if you feel the need to vote "No" please be considerate and leave feedback as to why.

Thanks in advance for your votes.

(Edit: Updated download link to correct Preview picture)
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#2 Feathered_IV

Feathered_IV
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:28

Voted, Yes. Looks believable as a WWI scheme. Doesn't break ones immersion like some do.
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#3 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 12:59

Cheers Feathered!
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#4 hq_Honeymonster

hq_Honeymonster
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 13:03

Not being a buffing historian like yourself Tom it kind of looks like a normal one with a white arrow, yellow cockpit and a few make shift repairs to me?

It's probably completely different to the trained eye.

Anyway that's obviously a yes from me… :mrgreen:
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#5 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 13:11

Very perceptive Ben - maybe you would like to be a research fellow at one of the prestigious Oxford colleges? I'll write you a reference!

It also has a red cowling and me flying it (which means it will soon be crashed in a flaming heap in a field) thanks for the vote! :)
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#6 JoeCrow

JoeCrow
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 13:12

Yes from me too. I suppose that you could call these skins 'neo-historical'. I much prefer them.
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#7 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 16:57

Thanks Joe!
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#8 FlyingShark

FlyingShark
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Posted 23 April 2011 - 16:59

I like it, yes.

:S!:
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#9 EclecticRazor

EclecticRazor
  • Posts: 631

Posted 23 April 2011 - 20:03

Admirable example of a personal skin that "could have been". Great job by you and Imp.
:S!:
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#10 WWHappy

WWHappy
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Posted 24 April 2011 - 16:40

Were is the puppy for your pup :S!: Voted yes
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#11 Stickyfinger

Stickyfinger
  • Posts: 707

Posted 24 April 2011 - 17:55

Yep


SF
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#12 Skyburn

Skyburn
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Posted 24 April 2011 - 18:22

good skin. I vote yes
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#13 J2_Adam

J2_Adam
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  • LocationVancouver, BC

Posted 24 April 2011 - 18:40

Nice to see something that's looks somewhat realistic. Yes.
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#14 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:39

Thanks for the votes and feedback guys! :)
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#15 WWBrian

WWBrian
  • Posts: 2418

Posted 25 April 2011 - 05:20

Voted yes!

Like you, I prefer the more modest additions to a personal scheme.

I'm a little suprised though.

Your repairs theme is good (a lofty goal for me as a beginning skinner), and generally we don't see enough of that sort of thing.

…but as a point for future reference, your fuselage patch looks like an "iron on" patch.
Perhaps some stitching detail, or a Z-cut pattern to increase the edge surface-area. Just changing the color of a square shape looks a bit silly to the trained eye (which, as a pilot, I thought you'd be).


I'm suprised you let something like that on your skin.

I would also have changed the tint on the green aileron *just a tad* so you know it was from a different Pup, and not look like "you forgot to do the roundel" kind of thing.

…then again, looking at skins with a different eye now, I just may be WAAAAY over-thinking all this stuff and confusing it with my own ideas for "battle-damaged" additions to my future skins.

Overall, a big yes though!

S!
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#16 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 07:04

Brian thanks for the feedback.

I agree the square patch can look odd and too uniform however all a repair was in an RFC WWI plane for fabric only damage was a square patch (usually pre cut and then pasted on with dope - no stitching no odd shapes usually) the linen used was very thin to prevent any additional weight/drag. - we researched it prior to the skin.

It's a case of reality maybe not looking as dramatic/real as the fiction would be.

Yes the PC10 could have been a different shade on the aileron - it probably wouldn't be taken off a different pup (as then it would have some aileron on it) but would have been a factory spare probably - but in this case the shade is the same (imagine it is from the same factory and the same batch of PC10). Again it was 50/50 but no reason deviating historically for dramatic effect.

Image

Some more info here:

Historical Skins

And this may help you ageing/weathering skins in the future if you are interested:

Most WWI crates were factory finished in gloss dopes and/or varnishes. Since the life of an airframe was measured in months, if not weeks, they really didn't live long enough to "weather". Here's what would have happened to the typical airframe:

The aircraft may have undergone a short factory test hop, was wiped down, disassembled and shipped to an air park, where it was reassembled. At this point, it was still glossy, but with a few chips around removable panels. When it arrived at its assigned unit it may have gone directly into combat, and had unit markings applied as operations permitted.

In service, the high gloss dope would begin to dull on the topsides, and dope and varnish would be scuffed, or at least worn thin, where the pilot scrambled up the side to get into the cockpit. Rotary engined craft would quickly start to grow staining where castor oil accumulated along the bottom of the frame, and the bottom of the airframe would be blackened by oily exhaust. In-line engined aircraft would begin to develop residue from oil leaks around the lower engine cowling. Depending on where the stack was mounted, there could be a bit of exhaust staining on the fuselage, wing or horizontal stabilizer. Fabric fuselage covering would begin to sag and even crack in the area of the the lower wing as the airframe flexed in flight and during landing. Unit markings may have been painted in thin paints that could allow the underlying colors to show through a bit, and could begin to fade or flake off in short order. Operation from dirt/grass fields would cause grass-stain discoloration (if nor outright damage) where the wheels kicked up debris onto the wing underside. Ground crews, of course, tried to keep the airframes free from accumulations of grime, but surfaces inevitably became stained. You can also add chipping around access panels and to the forward portions of struts and engine covers. Certain panels could show signed of having been "massaged" when the didn't fit quite right. Where the armament was close to the bodywork there may have been erosion of the finish, particularly forward of the gun muzzle (but probably very minimal gunpowder staining.)

Clear doped linen would show staining most readily, particularly anywhere the linen contacted an airframe component and crud could accumulate. Aircraft in the Middle East would probably show the most fading due to the harsh sun. Fabric damage was repaired with dope and whatever fabric was at hand. Some bullet holes were repaired with a small circle painted with the national insignia of the perpetrator

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#17 WWBrian

WWBrian
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 08:40

Yeah, either way it looks fantastic Tom….but if I may…

Your Alby example is not a good one for your Pup repair comparison ( or rather it shows the PROPER way to do it)…as the fabric seam is under the rib tape. (your fusleage repair is not )

As your pic shows: They would have cut away the damaged fabric to the next rib, pulled up the rib tape (the strip of doped on fabric that covers the stitching of the wing fabric to the rib) and made the repair that way. ( where the seam of the "patch" is under the doped rib tape and completely secure )…

…however, in your Pup example, the fuselage damage is not along a former or longeron/stringer (like a rib repair). It is fabric that is "flapping in the wind" (if you will). Repairs like that are cut with a Zigzag-pattern to increase the area of the patch edge to promote better adhesion if it cannot be sewn.


Like I said though Tom, either way, looks great!

Just caught me off guard I suppose.

S!

p.s. Regarding the weathering - Great stuff! But I won't be doing historical skins. My personal skins collect weathering because the plane has been around for a year or two….that's kinda' the point of the weathering:lol: – but I do like the bolded part. ;)

Attached Files


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#18 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 08:57

I've seen examples that don't look dissimilar to how Imp has done it.


Basically it was literally pasted over the damage and painted with dope- you have to remember that if it was a significant tear (ie where airflow/ ballooning had further torn it) rather than a puncture the fuselage would have been stripped and re-covered. That repair wouldn't be suitable for a tear as you are right the fabric would have lost tautness and the patching would be useless. In which case then it would have to be stretched from the framework of the fuselage as you said.

The reality is - these planes were written off with anything much more than superficial fabric damage - or would have been sent to the depot for full repairing or breaking down for parts. The ones on this skin represent squadron repairs and the Alb in that picture is more than likely a depot repair as re-applying wing fabric was more complicated and had to be done properly- to prevent very dangerous ballooning or tearing in flight.

It would have been patched both sides if necessary from the hollow fuselage.
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#19 WWBrian

WWBrian
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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:07

I've seen examples that don't look dissimilar to how Imp has done it.


Basically it was literally pasted over the damage and painted with dope-

…for small bullet holes, yes…


you have to remember that if it was a significant tear (ie where airflow/ ballooning had further torn it) rather than a puncture the fuselage would have been stripped and re-covered. That repair wouldn't be suitable for a tear as you are right the fabric would have lost tautness and the patching would be useless. In which case then it would have to be stretched from the framework of the fuselage as you said.

…and this looks to be what you have ( with that size of a repair)…

The reality is - these planes were written off with anything much more than superficial fabric damage - or would have been sent to the depot for full repairing or breaking down for parts. The ones on this skin represent squadron repairs and the Alb in that picture is more than likely a depot repair as re-applying wing fabric was more complicated and had to be done properly- to prevent very dangerous ballooning or tearing in flight.

It would have been patched both sides if necessary from the hollow fuselage.

Yeah, I would have thought your aileron came from another Pup wing laying around the hangar, not factory replacment. (hence the slightly different shade of color)

…but again, I'm just over-thinking all this and looking at it with a new skinner's eyeball.

Enjoy your new skin!
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#20 ImPeRaToR

ImPeRaToR
  • Posts: 7902

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:19

I was only following orders :P

The patch used to have stitching but Tom told me that they were glued on so I removed it stitching.

Attached File  Clipboard01.jpg   6.39KB   520 downloads
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#21 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
  • Posts: 5549

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:21

you have to remember that if it was a significant tear (ie where airflow/ ballooning had further torn it) rather than a puncture the fuselage would have been stripped and re-covered. That repair wouldn't be suitable for a tear as you are right the fabric would have lost tautness and the patching would be useless. In which case then it would have to be stretched from the framework of the fuselage as you said.

…and this looks to be what you have ( with that size of a repair)…

As opposed to a close group of maybe 2 -3 holes bullet holes? How can you tell what sort of damage anything was once repaired? If it was a ballooned tear it would almost certainly have ripped to a seam/the fuselage internal frame.

What do you think happened to that Alb before it was repaired?

It could have been battle damage, fabric ballooning and tearing, wear and tear or just a scrape of the wing when moving it to a shed or even maybe a wheel from a friendly plane clipping it in flight or even an impact with a bird. I've seen and read about all of those things causing a plane to need repairing. It's impossible to judge from the repair itself.

You are being difficult and picky for no reason other than I'd guess boredom?


Do some yourself and I'll pick them apart for you if you want.

Incidentally since you are obviously the plane whisperer and can tell what damage something has sustained post repair can you do it with this one?

Image

What has been fixed?
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#22 WWBrian

WWBrian
  • Posts: 2418

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:30

Tom,


What do you think happened to that Alb before it was repaired?

I suspect structural wing damage…not just a fabric patch…maybe strut seperated from upper wing… I dunno' but it was pretty significant.

All I said was it caught me off-guard.

No need to get all defensive. I like your skin! Imp did a great job…

…thought we were just discussing patch repair techniques…

You are being difficult and picky for no reason other than I'd guess boredom?

How am I being difficult and picky?

Get some thicker skin….

…sheesh…
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#23 WWBrian

WWBrian
  • Posts: 2418

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:31

What has been fixed?

Easy…but there's still some fixing to do….

…need to get rid of that loose nut on the control stick

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Heh, chillax Tom….you're taking this way to defensivly.
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#24 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
  • Posts: 5549

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:37

What has been fixed?

Easy…but there's still some fixing to do….

…need to get rid of that loose not on the control stick

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Heh, chillax Tom….you're taking this way to defensivly.

Yeah you're right. Sorry Brian. I take it back - we did the skin wrong without any research and we'll correct it for you- just leave it with me.

Any chance you could post some pictures of RFC repaired battle damage for us to correct it from?

What was it that caused the damage do you think?

I was thinking the careless parking of a woman driver. But you seem good at surmising what it may have been so you come up with a scenario and a suitable repair and we'll change it.

Looking forward to what you come up with- I'm at my wits end trying to think of something.

Incidentally your spelling doesn't look very accurate to me.
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#25 WWBrian

WWBrian
  • Posts: 2418

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:40

I was only following orders :P

The patch used to have stitching but Tom told me that they were glued on so I removed it stitching.


That was a good call.

Fabric is not stitched to other fabric as in the image you posted…


The skin looks great Imp!


…guess I'll keep any knowledge of fabric repairs to myself next time.
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#26 hq_Neca

hq_Neca
  • Posts: 282

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:49

I Bang Tigermoth :D
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#27 ImPeRaToR

ImPeRaToR
  • Posts: 7902

Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:52

Before you go on to correct other peoples skins you could start with your own ones Brian :) Or ask somebody else to do it!
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#28 WWBrian

WWBrian
  • Posts: 2418

Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:04

ahhhhhh….yuup…

:roll:


Yeah, I got lotsa' wrong on my skins, this I know….but, not unlike my spelling, I don't mind it. (that was hilarious btw Tom) :lol:

…how many times do I have to say I like the skin!? Sheesh….

I commented on what I might do differently when I try battle-damage on a furure skin…

Tom said that's the way it's done, I simply said, no, not really….

…we started discussing, and now ya'all are bent outa' shape like I was critisizing his skin.

WTF?

I think you all need a chill pill.

Holy Smokes.
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#29 =MFC=Gunloon

=MFC=Gunloon
  • Posts: 1101

Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:18

Well done personal skin, my compliments!

=MFC=Gunloon
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#30 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
  • Posts: 5549

Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:36

Cheers Gunloon!

And thanks for the positive comments and saying you liked it Brian- I wonder how you'd take it if someone said to you "Yeah I like your wife but if it was up to me I wouldn't have put that face and arse on her". ;)

I look forward to your skins showing us how it's done.
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#31 catchov

catchov
  • Posts: 3986

Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:09

I say Cundall ! Steady on. Brian's wife has a great arse :P
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#32 Tom-Cundall

Tom-Cundall
  • Posts: 5549

Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:13

Alright maybe a bad example. :)
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#33 Miggins

Miggins
  • Posts: 3115

Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:32

Play nice folks, or take it to PM, we don't want a skin poll thread getting locked.
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#34 MortiferusRosa

MortiferusRosa
  • Posts: 89

Posted 29 April 2011 - 02:50

Top wing, left aerilon is missing the tricolor. Dont know if you noticed. Aside from that it looks nice.

Edit: If that is what you ment in your edit of the original post, my bad.
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#35 ImPeRaToR

ImPeRaToR
  • Posts: 7902

Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:33

Yes it's supposed to be a replacement rudder that does not have the roundel on it yet :)
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#36 EclecticRazor

EclecticRazor
  • Posts: 631

Posted 29 April 2011 - 09:49

Tom Cundall said "Incidentally since you are obviously the plane whisperer and can tell what damage something has sustained post repair can you do it with this one?'

I laffed my ass Tom.

Was thinking of a bandaid on a personal plane but wont tempt fate…
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#37 Panthercules

Panthercules
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Posted 10 May 2011 - 01:56

Poll concluded; thread locked.
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