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Logitech g940 vs Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Joystick and Thr


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#1 aircastellon

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:12

What do you prefer and why?… 8-)

Thanks
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#2 Kudlius

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 17:14

Logitech G940 is a disaster.
I have it.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VkA9tK7gMiU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9I6fqGuMDMo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=h3VBmR-7960" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">
and so on, and so on…
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#3 soarfeat

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 22:21

I have a G940 ( gift from my wife ). I would advise caution at this time due to a poor hardware design in the throttle quadrant that causes problems down the road. I am on my my third unit ( have returned 2 times due to a spike problem in the R1 and R2 wheel. My third unit was out of warranty when same problems arose and the best they could do is offer me a whole new unit at half price ( 150 dollars ). I took the throttle quadrant apart and stripped the outer electrical casing with 12 wires inside and found that one of the wires ( light blue ) had been worn apart and the red wire was just hanging by a few wires. I rewired all the wires to lengthen them and then did a modification to the design to reduce fatique on the wires. I found it best not to sleeve/use heatshrink for the 12 wires but to just use zip ties in proper areas to hold the wires. It took a while to do this but all is fine now. Hopefully Logitech will correct this among other problems some time soon– sorry for long explanation,went a bit overboard,
cheers–rclark
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#4 soarfeat

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 22:25

sorry this was accidental duplicate of above post— deleted
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#5 Josh_Echo

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 00:18

Logitech g940 vs Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog

As far as I can tell, and I've looked into this matter at some length, the Thrustmaster is absolutely superior to the Logitech. Logitech has consistently made very imprecise joysticks, while Thrustmaster makes very precise ones. Furthermore, the Warthog uses Hall effect sensors, while the G940 uses a combination of Hall sensors and potentiometers. The Warthog has virtually no "slop," while the G940 has several millimeters of it. Finally, the G940 pedals are too close together. Simped and Saitek pedals are the proper distance apart. (CH pedals are also too close together.)

Logitech G940 is a disaster.

/thread
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#6 IRFC_SmokinHole

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 00:34

I have the G940 and I absolutely love it. I loved it even before December but on that month they offered a 2nd firmware that greatly improved the precision of the stick. Two years with this thing and I couldn't be happier.

BTW, my other car is a 737 and the peddals have the same separation.

Yes there are R1/R2 wheel spikes but they are easily fixed.
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#7 Josh_Echo

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 00:47

they offered a 2nd firmware that greatly improved the precision of the stick.

What do you mean? I have a few friends who are stuck with the G940, and any suggestions to improve its precision would be welcome.

BTW, my other car is a 737 and the peddals have the same separation.

Aye, but the 737 isn't a fighter. The Cessnas which I flew in reality had about the same separation, too, but all of the real fighters I've sat in had pedals much farther apart.

It's also important to note that I sat much farther from the pedals in the real Cessna than I can sit from my simming pedals. This exacerbates the problem, as does the fact that simming pedals are less precise than real aircraft pedals.

Bottom line is, pedals that are twelve inches apart offer more control than pedals that are five inches apart, and this is even more so if your desk forces you to sit closer to your pedals than you should be.

To anyone who is looking for the best control that he can get in simming pedals: go look at a few pictures of fighter cockpits, then go look at a few pictures of the various pedal makers. Simped and Saitek make "fighter distance" pedals; CH and Logitech make "airliner distance" pedals. As for the precision (as opposed to control) of each set of pedals, I can't effectively comment because I haven't used them all.
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#8 Surfimp

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 15:50

FWIW I'm really happy with my G940, but I've only had it a month now. I find its force feedback intoxicating :)

And while the rudder pedals are somewhat closer together than some IRL aircraft I've flown / flown in, I do feel they are more comfortable than the CH pedals I also own. I haven't used Saitek or Simped so can't comment, but presumably the amount of under-desk space available should be taken into consideration, too?
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#9 catchov

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 00:29

Does the Warthog have FFB ?
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#10 IRFC_SmokinHole

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 00:34

they offered a 2nd firmware that greatly improved the precision of the stick.

What do you mean? I have a few friends who are stuck with the G940, and any suggestions to improve its precision would be welcome.

BTW, my other car is a 737 and the peddals have the same separation.

Aye, but the 737 isn't a fighter. The Cessnas which I flew in reality had about the same separation, too, but all of the real fighters I've sat in had pedals much farther apart.

To the first, just have them go to logitech.com. To the second…whatever…
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#11 HotTom

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:26

I've had my G940 for more than a year now and am very happy with it.

The only problem I've had with it was the force feedback motor was overheating. I called Logitech, they sent me a free shipping label and three days later I had a new one that has given me zero problems.

Logitech has a well-deserved reputation for great customer service.

Frankly, all the buttons and switches and dials on both the G940 and the Warthog seemed like massive overkill for a WWI sim but I've found uses for all of them on the G940.

The Warthog has received generally good reviews but it costs about twice as much as the G940. I'm not convinced it is twice as good :)
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#12 hq_Chimpy

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 13:21

I have gone through flight sticks like hot dinners over the last 8 months or so.

I started with an x52, which i think was rubbish,
I then got an MS FFB2 which was brilliant, i loved it that much i pruchased..
Logitech G940 to keep the FFB, personally i think the G940 was an absolute pig, i know some people love it, personally its like stiring a bag of pebbles with a wooden spoon.. ok i exagerate but i didnt like it.

I stuck with the FFB2 for ages but recently treated myself to a warthog…. and i love it, out and out the best stick i have ever tried!

However, to put them in order

1.) Warthog
2.) MS FFB2
3.) G940
4.) X52 - but i love the throttle and i have used it with the MS FFB2 and im still using it now foe extra axis!

If i was buying again, i would get a second hand FFB2 from the bay of fleas, then a throttle quadrant from somewhere else.
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#13 EclecticRazor

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 15:59

O_catchov

Warthog does not have FFB

Wish I would have put the $300 I paid for the G940 toward a Thrustmaster Warthog. I detest the rudder pedals especially - they are far too close together and lack the range in motion they need for fighters - a poor design you are forced to get with the package. They don't sell these componants separately because there are far better rudder pedals out there. I would give them to someone, except they can only be used through the G940 joystick connection. :roll:

Great throttle control and I would recommend it if it were a stand-alone item. But it must also be used through the G940 joystick connection. :(

The joystick is great feeling, with heft and the FFB is a nice feature. The problem is that the ffb has been implimented at the cost of precision. :xx:

If, after hearing all this, someone wants a hardly used G940 in immaculate condition (only abuse has been verbal), please PM me because I am replacing mine with SimPed rudder pedals and the Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS! :S!:
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#14 HotTom

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 16:51

O_catchov

Warthog does not have FFB

Wish I would have put the $300 I paid for the G940 toward a Thrustmaster Warthog. I detest the rudder pedals especially - they are far too close together and lack the range in motion they need for fighters - a poor design you are forced to get with the package. They don't sell these componants separately because there are far better rudder pedals out there. I would give them to someone, except they can only be used through the G940 joystick connection. :roll:

Great throttle control and I would recommend it if it were a stand-alone item. But it must also be used through the G940 joystick connection. :(

The joystick is great feeling, with heft and the FFB is a nice feature. The problem is that the ffb has been implimented at the cost of precision. :xx:

If, after hearing all this, someone wants a hardly used G940 in immaculate condition (only abuse has been verbal), please PM me because I am replacing mine with SimPed rudder pedals and the Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS! :S!:

Chimpy and Eclectic, you must be Trust Funders (or CEO of a bank that hauled in TARP funds :o ). Those are pricey toys. Wish I could afford 'em :S!:

Didn't realize Warthog doesn't have FFB. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

Without FFB, I wouldn't buy any stick for RoF.

FFB warns me of incipient stalls and thus lets me know when I'm getting close to the edge of the envelope. No stall horns in WWI.

Plus, with FFB, I don't have to mess with adjusting curves. The default curves work just fine if you have FFB.

I just started flying DCS A-10C (a really great jet sim!) and I would buy a Warthog for that.

But I need those FFB cues in these early crates.

So I'll stick with my G940. Lots of folks fly the A-10C with it.

Much of it comes down to how much you have to spend.

The MSFFB2 and the Saitek Evo Force no longer are being made. Pity because they offered very affordable alternatives.

I do agree on the G940 pedals. They are too close together and the rudder is too sensitive for real precision aiming but I've become used to it.
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#15 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 18:25

HotTom, I consider the Warthog's lack of Force Feedback to be a plus. I won't buy any F.F. stick. After flying real airplanes, I can't stand the feel of F.F. joysticks. "No physical feedback" is better than "bad physical feedback." I simply use sound cues; the buffeting sound is a very consistent indicator of your A.o.A.

I also don't use any curves or dead zone, just direct input, so even without F.F. I don't need to mess with curves. I think that if you had a more precise joystick (instead of the G940, which has quite a bit of slop), you would be able to do away with the curves and notice (after some initial difficulty relearning some stuff) a massive improvement in your ability to court max Alpha. Curves essentially borrow precision from one area of the joystick (usually the area you should be using to dance around the stall) and give it to the center, which generally makes straight-and-level gunnery easier but turning and stall-fighting harder.

Very good post, Hq_Chimpy, thank you. It's good to hear my impressions confirmed by yet another knowledgeable pilot. I'm feeling more and more that the Warthog is the stick to buy, if one has the budget. Do you happen to have had experience with Simped and Saitek pedals? How would you rate all of the pedals you've used?
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#16 EclecticRazor

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 18:37

Here is a head to head comparison of the popular HOTAS systems. You should probably give it a look before your buy any of them. Wish I had found this BEFORE I bought the G940.

Attached Files


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#17 -Requiem-

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 19:01

I guess you can lump me in with the great unwashed masses since I own the G940 also. The point to remember is whatever you choose to buy is what you will become used to. I used to use a Logitech Extreme 3D pro, a $20 twisty joystick, for over a year and I had no problems with precision flying or shooting people down. I know for a fact that Parazaine still uses this stick and he certainly kills with the best pilots in RoF consistently. After the 3D pro I changed to the Logitech G940, and after the initial adjustment period to the pedals I don't feel like my flying is any better, but it absolutely more enjoyable to fly regardless of simulator. No curves are used in my profiles either.

Either way, flying with pedals has enhanced the RoF experience for me, and having FFB is a feature that I wanted. So if you care about FFB get a G940, if you don't want/care FFB then get a Warthog if it is in your price range. The only factor your joystick limits is your level of immersion, and certainly not skill level. Buy what you want and your body will adjust.
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#18 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 19:42

The point to remember is whatever you choose to buy is what you will become used to.
The only factor your joystick limits is your level of immersion, and certainly not skill level.

Requiem, while there is indeed personal preference involved, there are also absolute factors at work. If two joysticks are exactly alike except that one is more precise and the other is less precise, every pilot in the world will have a higher maximum potential on the precise joystick than on the less precise one.

I know of several good pilots who fly with crappy joysticks, but all of them could do even better with a good joystick. When I swapped from an Saitek X-52 to a CH Combat Stick (not that I recommend CH—it's got serious problems of its own), my gunnery averages more than doubled overnight. And gunnery's just part of it.
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#19 arjisme

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:11

I don't understand these comments about lack of precision with the G940 joystick. It uses Hall sensors and is precise. Can anyone with direct knowledge of the G940 and something they consider to be more precise comment on why they view the G940 joystick as having slop?
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#20 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:33

I don't have hands-on experience with the G940 yet, but the pilots I've walked through the calibration utility report that there are several millimeters (measured from the top) of slop. The greater precision of Hall effect sensors doesn't matter, because sensor precision isn't the bottleneck in gaming joystick precision. It's mechanical play, among other things. Mechanical play is the biggest, but maximum throw, spring strength, et cetera have an effect.

Hall sensors are better than potentiometers because Hall sensors don't deteriorate like potentiometers, but a joystick with Hall sensors isn't necessarily more precise than a joystick with potentiometers. The Hall sensors are themselves more precise than potentiometers, but joystick precision is determined by much more than merely the sensor.
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#21 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:44

HotTom, I consider the Warthog's lack of Force Feedback to be a plus. I won't buy any F.F. stick. After flying real airplanes, I can't stand the feel of F.F. joysticks. "No physical feedback" is better than "bad physical feedback." I simply use sound cues; the buffeting sound is a very consistent indicator of your A.o.A.

Funny you should say that Josh as I wouldn't ever fly ROF without FFB since getting it. The MS FFB2 with ROF is the closest I have ever got to the feeling of flying a vintage bi-plane it's changed the game completely for me and given me much better results- maybe not the best to be a combat pilot but for realism it is excellent - if only I could get FFB pedals as well!

What FFB sticks have you used to give you this opinion, in what game and are you just comparing this to a few hours in a Cessna?
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#22 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:48

What FFB sticks have you used to give you this opinion, in what game

Well, yeah, crappy Logitech ones with IL-2, mostly. [grin] Haven't tried the M.S. F.F.2, but Peter Zvan likes his very much so it must be okay. But I haven't had the opportunity to try it, and I'm not convinced that it can replicate the feel of a real airplane.

and are you just comparing this to a few hours in a Cessna?

Yep, Cessna 152, 172, and 182.
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#23 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:53

Not tried FFB in IL2 (or even IL2 at all) not tried a Logitech FFB stick and not flown a Cessna for over 6 years so I can't comment on that at all your experiences may be exactly right - get on ebay Josh and buy an MS stick it's a revelation .

Also still chuckling at this:

It's good to hear my impressions confirmed by yet another knowledgeable pilot.

Image
:S!:
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#24 -Requiem-

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:54

Requiem, while there is indeed personal preference involved, there are also absolute factors at work. If two joysticks are exactly alike except that one is more precise and the other is less precise, every pilot in the world will have a higher maximum potential on the precise joystick than on the less precise one.
Josh Echo, don't take me for an idiot. That's really pointing out the obvious concerning one factor using identical joysticks, what are other factors?

I know of several good pilots who fly with crappy joysticks, but all of them could do even better with a good joystick.

What constitutes a crappy joystick? I wouldn't consider the Logitech Extreme 3D pro a crappy joystick even though it cost me $20 because when you purchase certain brands of equipment there is a minimum amount of quality you expect to receive. If you instead went and bought some no-name no frills joystick that has questionable quality, or if you use a joystick that is at least a few years old then of course I would agree the joystick will make a noticeable difference. The big difference between joysticks IMO is the build quality which is what allows them to retain their sensitivity and accuracy over time, and in this area you get what you pay for.

When I swapped from an Saitek X-52 to a CH Combat Stick (not that I recommend CH—it's got serious problems of its own), my gunnery averages more than doubled overnight. And gunnery's just part of it.
The X-52 was released in 2004, however I don't know how long you have owned it for. If you have owned it for at least a few years then it is reasonable to expect that on some level there will be performance degradation over time. You would have naturally adjusted for it, but on using a brand new modern stick which brings with it a better build quality/sensitivity/accuracy it makes sense that you feel you fly better with it.

I don't have hands-on experience with the G940 yet, but the pilots I've walked through the calibration utility report that there are several millimeters (measured from the top) of slop.
From what I understand this slop allows game programmers to set the level of resistance in the stick in-game instead of Logitech programming an automatic resistance amount. Not having this can allow the game-programmers to create more accurate feeling flight models because there is no pre-built resistance confliction from Logitech. Slop is different to deadzone though, which I'm sure you are aware of. There is no deadzone in the G940.
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#25 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:55

Also still chuckling at this:

It's good to hear my impressions confirmed by yet another knowledgeable pilot.

[grin] I think you misunderstood that last quote of mine: I actually meant, in this case, "A lot of knowledgeable pilots have recommended the Warthog, and it's good to hear yet another of them do so."
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#26 IRFC_SmokinHole

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 20:58

I don't understand these comments about lack of precision with the G940 joystick. It uses Hall sensors and is precise. Can anyone with direct knowledge of the G940 and something they consider to be more precise comment on why they view the G940 joystick as having slop?

The G940 is every bit as precise as a good player needs it to be. Before the FW update last December it suffered from a reversal bug. This bug was apparent if you moved an axis, paused, then reversed direction. In the axis that was reversed, movement would skip several steps, preventing the player from really fine tuning the input. In the stick that no longer exists. It does still exist in the throttles, rudders, and rotaries. It's not a problem for me and some claim that all HIDs do this but the skip is so small that the user is never aware of it.
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#27 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:02

The X-52 was released in 2004, however I don't know how long you have owned it for. If you have owned it for at least a few years then it is reasonable to expect that on some level there will be performance degradation over time. You would have naturally adjusted for it, but on using a brand new modern stick which brings with it a better build quality/sensitivity/accuracy it makes sense that you feel you fly better with it.

The X-52 was new. The CH was nine years old. The CH was still several hundred percent more precise around the center.

Slop is different to deadzone though, which I'm sure you are aware of. There is no deadzone in the G940.

Looks like I'm having a hard time with the definitions; I know the problems, but I'm not as familiar with the commonly-accepted terms with them. Is "slop" the lack of a centering mechanism? I've been using it to describe what I call "hard dead zone," which is caused by poor design of mechanical play.
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#28 MiG-77

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:19

Is "slop" the lack of a centering mechanism?

Yes, there is small area in "center of joystick" (which depend what is set to be "center" like in SE5a) where motors dont automatically center it. IT still control everything just fine in that area.
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#29 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:45

So when players refer to slop, this phenomenon is exclusive to Force Feedback joysticks, right?

So what's the standard term for what I used to call "hard dead zone"—that is, the area in the center in which joystick motions have no effect (or no precise effect), even when there is no dead zone set in any of the software?
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#30 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:46

Dead-zone?
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#31 Josh_Echo

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:49

No good—that term is usually used to refer to such an area which is intentionally set in the software, to assist ham-handed people. It's too confusing to have two very different concepts using the same term. I've had a lot of people not understand what I'm trying to say.
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#32 MiG-77

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 21:59

So when players refer to slop, this phenomenon is exclusive to Force Feedback joysticks, right?

Well, that depend totally from person, but spring centered joystick can also have "slop" aswell. -> area where centering mechanism dont work.

So what's the standard term for what I used to call "hard dead zone"—that is, the area in the center in which joystick motions have no effect (or no precise effect), even when there is no dead zone set in any of the software?

What ever you like. I dont think there is any official standards :D

Anyway, point is in that G940 "slop" means that it has small area where centering dont work (and that FW update made this area smaller). It is very precise in every range of motion tought.
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#33 arjisme

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 22:47

I will verify this tonight, but I don't think I have any slop/deadzone/area near the center where small movements don't give input in my G940.
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#34 HotTom

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 23:11

I will verify this tonight, but I don't think I have any slop/deadzone/area near the center where small movements don't give input in my G940.

I don't find any slop or lack of precision in the G940 stick.

The rudder pedals were a bit too sensitive or "twitchy" at default settings but I reduced the hysteresis setting (to 20 I think) to "calm them down." I'm now quite used to them and able to predict what they will and won't do.

Again, I'm very happy with the G940.

And FF is a "must" for me in RoF.

It is a matter of personal preference and trying to argue about which is "better" is an exercise in futility. It's a totally subjective topic.
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#35 -Requiem-

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 00:04

My understanding is:

Deadzone = Area before any control inputs are recognised. This is set in some sticks or software to account for dodgy stick axis sensitivities.

Slop = Area of control input before the FFB is activated.
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#36 Josh_Echo

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 00:44

in that G940 "slop" means that it has small area where centering dont work (and that FW update made this area smaller).

What do you mean by firmware update? Is this some sort of patch you can download, or is it something you have to buy?
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#37 Josh_Echo

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 00:46

And FF is a "must" for me in RoF.
It is a matter of personal preference and trying to argue about which is "better" is an exercise in futility. It's a totally subjective topic.

I suppose Peter Zvan is proof of that. He continues to kick arse after having switched to the M.S. F.F.2, so evidently not all F.F. is as bad as the ones I've used.
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#38 arjisme

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:05

I just confirmed it in my setup. Any movement at all of my physical joystick is translated into movement of the in-game joystick. There is no deadzone. All I can say is I find the G940 extremely responsive and have no issues with its precision.

Now the throttle does have issues with the R1 & R2 thumbwheels (as described earlier in the thread). I think Logitech built a top class FFB joystick, but the throttle could be better. It's not bad, but if you need to depend on those two thumbwheels, it is a problem unless you hack your throttle to fix it.

The rudder pedals are decent enough, but nothing to be overly impressed with. They replaced my CH pedals, which were having problems with spiking around the center. The G940 pedals don't spike (at least none that I've noticed), so I am happy with them. I agree they are too close together – same gripe I had with the CH pedals.

@HotTom – I'll have to try your hysteresis suggestion on those. I do find them a bit twitchy.

I really don't want to fly without FFB either. Are the effects realistic? I am sure they only approximate the real effects WW1 pilots felt in real life. But that is better than nothing and I do think it reasonably simulates forces in the stick. So many aspects of flight sims, including this one, are compromises on simulating real life. The view system, the damage models, the environment, the forces we can and cannot feel, the operation of the guns & engines. I see no reason to discount the FFB effects because they aren't fully "realistic." They are believable and add to the overall immersion for me.

One reason I can see for avoiding FFB is you will have to fight with the effects when trying to have precise control. That could impact gunnery, for example. If that is an issue for you, either turn the effects off or avoid a FFB stick altogether.
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#39 arjisme

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:07

What do you mean by firmware update? Is this some sort of patch you can download, or is it something you have to buy?
There is firmware in the G940 that controls how it operates (something like the OS of the stick). Logitech released a firmware upgrade some time ago to address some issues people were reporting. It is free, you download it and follow their procedure to update your stick with it.
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#40 O_Taipan

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:36

Josh you could call it a "hardware deadzone".

For the MS FFB2 I do have one in my cupboard, and it was nice to use for ROF but I also play other sims and it has a severe lack of buttons. Switching between fighting in LockON Jets I had to put my CH stick back up for the buttons, then switching back to ROF my muscle memory and aim would be messed up I even fumbled some of the buttons on the top as the positioning is so different to a HOTAS stick.

So, I think the MS FFB2 or force feedback in general is nice for ROF if that's the only sim you play and you're ok with the number of buttons. However those who say the "shake" is necessary to tell when an impending stall is coming I believe that is wrong. There are other signs such as the sound effects and the wing drop, plus the general "feeling" you get when you are used to your plane. Also I think if you're in a fight and you're going to stall then you're dead anyway lol. I fly mostly Boom n Zoom so I don't want to have $0 in my energy bank.

For the G940 I've never tried it but I've heard great things about the new version post-firmware update including "Good Precision".

My CH was getting old and it was twitchy especially for D7f or Camel, I wanted a single good stick I can use for everything and not swap between FFB2 and CH for different sims.

So, loving the beta of A-10C I was playing I eventually caved in and bought the sexy HOTAS Warthog.

Going back to the original title of this topic - the Warthog is excellent. I fly just as well as when I had FFB2 in fact I think I fly better. Also the sheer number of controls I never have to go to the keyboard, even in DCS if I'm not on HOTAS then it will be the mouse clicking the cockpit.

It's not a newbie stick however, you WILL need to learn the programming of it if you want to get the most out of it (i.e. use all the buttons). If you don't program it, you are limited to 32 buttons.

I did do a short review of my impressions a little while ago - very much from a prop sim (ROF) perspective: http://www.oceanicwi...php?topic=384.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oceanicwi...om/Forum/Main/i … opic=384.0
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