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Methuen codes into Pan tone colours


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#1 Fubar

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 19:24

Hi I've been working on changing Methuen codes into Pan tone colours for the use in photoshop, I'm in the printing industrie and have access to pan tone books and it just happens that my local library had a copy of the Methuen Handbook of colour by A Kornerup and J H Wanscher however they would not let me take the book out of the library, so I make the odd trip to the library with my Pan tone book and try to match colours.

So a number of people here thought it would be a good idea if we could convert the Methuen codes into pan tone colours for possible use for skiners ect. Now these Methuen/pan tone colours should not be used as gosble but they would make a good starting point for the aircraft colours, and with the help of people like
J2_Adam,ImPeRaToR,Womenfly2 ect we may come up with some colour chips that could be quite useful.

So what I propose if anyone wishes to post there Methuen codes here I will convert
them to the nearest pan tone colour, but please remember I need to go down to my
local library to do this.

Now when posting the Methuen codes its a good idea to say which aircraft the code
is for and the source (Albatros/windsock datafile…) just so if people have the
book ect they can take a look.

It would be nice if people can club together and get some good info on colours
so we could come upwith some good colour chips. ;)

Fubar
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#2 NoahWhtly

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 19:37

What are Methuen codes, if I may ask? A google search doesn't really reveal much. I take it that it is a color system of some type. Was it the color system they used in WWI? I'm a graphic designer and I'm pretty familure with the Pantone system, but have never heard of Methuen.
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#3 Panthercules

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 21:17

I'm not sure what the origins of the Methuen codes are, but I've seen them used very often to describe WWI aircraft colors.

For example, Dan-San Abbott uses the following Methuen codes in his article about DFW C.V camouflage schemes (which I would love to have the Pantone codes for, BTW, Fubar):

MC 4A2/3 - yellowish white - to - pale yellow (clear linen doped undersurfaces)

MC 25F8 - myrtle green (dark green camo)

MC 26F8 - bottle green (dark green camo)

MC 6E8 - rust brown (dark brown camo)

MC 6D6 - cinnamon brown (lighter brown camo)

MC 27E4 - dull green (dark green camo)

MC 3E6 - light olive (lighter green camo)

MC 5C6 - ochre (lozenge color)

MC 22D5 - oriental blue (lozenge color)

MC 15D4 - greyish magenta (lozenge color)

MC 25D3 - dull green (lozenge color)

MC 12D5 - greyish ruby (lozenge color)
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#4 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 22:53

Ah I see you posted them already!

Here is some more:


DFW C.V(Av) 7877/17 (Aviatik-made)
dark purple 18F8
deep green 25D8
golden wheat 4B5


Halberstadt Cl.II fuselage colours (relevant for Halberstadt-made DFW C.V)

Grey Purple 12E-F4
Brownish Khaki 4F8
Dark Green 26F4
Dark Prussian Blue 20F6
Bluish Light Grey 24F3
Brick Red 8D7

___________________________

And, if you have some spare time, these would also be interesting, maybe to compliment your Albatros-colour collection:


Albatros D.II Johannisthal (should be similar to the early D.III colours you already have)

2F6 Dark Green
27C3 Pale Green
6E8 Rust Brown
24B3 Sky Blue


Albatros D.II OAW

27E8 Deep Green
27C5 Light Green
7D8 Burnt Sienna
23A3 Pale Blue


Albatros D.II LVG

26D-E4 (?) Dull Green
26B3 Pastel Green
6F7 Chestnut Brown
25A3 Pale Green
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#5 J2_Adam

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 23:01

I'd like to add in this post that when using Methuen codes for the lozenge fabric and stain for plywood (RE:EV/DVIII) the codes should only be used as a STARTING POINT due to the way the dye absorbs into the fabric, fabric texture and shadow/lighting and the way the colour of the stains fades away greatly on a couple of the colours.

I think that when used as a PAINT then the code can be trusted a little more although you still must allow for fading etc.

I'll put up my codes soon after I complete the changes for the NEW REQUIREMENTS :roll: :evil:

Cheers
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#6 WF2

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:35

Any local library can get you a copy of the Methuen Hand Book of Color on loan from another library that has a copy . You just need to fill out a form with the ISBN 10 0413334007 number. Then you can compare the color chips to whatever other standard you want. Anyone can do this.

This is a good idea! We also need a RoF Community Library to deposit all this great info we have gathered here on the forum for everyone to use.
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#7 WW1EAF_Splash

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 16:01

PC 10

Scan from Windsock Datafile No26 Sopwith Camel F1

Image

Be interesting to see the outcome. I have some RGB figures for Methuen already, darker shades more towards Brown as depicted in the scan.

Sopwith Pup - Windsock Data file No2 says 3E8, 3F8, 4F2 - 4F8

PC12 - 9E6/8

Splash
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#8 Fubar

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 20:04

Ok I'm going to look at these codes tomorrow ;)
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#9 J2_Adam

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 22:53

Splash, I hear what you are saying. Just wondering if you saw this post on theaerodrome.com. There are maybe others like it. A discussion on making PC10 an RGB.

http://www.theaerodr...c10-fs-rgb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/model … s-rgb.html

Cheers
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#10 WW1EAF_Splash

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 20:06

Splash, I hear what you are saying. Just wondering if you saw this post on theaerodrome.com. There are maybe others like it. A discussion on making PC10 an RGB.

http://www.theaerodr...c10-fs-rgb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/model … s-rgb.html

Cheers

No mate I haven't, thanks for the link. I will have a read.

Splash
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#11 Fubar

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 13:47

Here we are the first lot of Methuen codes translated into pan tone,
however could not get a perfect match on some colours so I've made a
small tweak if needed I like to think that I can make the odd colour
correction bearing in mind my printing background. It is important to
remember these colours are a starting piont.
I'd like to add in this post that when using Methuen codes for the lozenge fabric and stain for plywood (RE:EV/DVIII) the codes should only be used as a STARTING POINT due to the way the dye absorbs into the fabric, fabric texture and shadow/lighting and the way the colour of the stains fades away greatly on a couple of the colours.

I think that when used as a PAINT then the code can be trusted a little more although you still must allow for fading etc.

I'll put up my codes soon after I complete the changes for the NEW REQUIREMENTS :roll: :evil:

Cheers

Some of the colours will apear to saturated in the ROF engine so the saturation may need to be toned down ect
(I've already tried pc12 it looked wayover saturated but looked better when I desaturated it alittle).

I've added the Lab numbers to the colour chips as this is the best method to match them,
type in the Lab numbers instead of using the colour picker (in photo shop chose colour picker tool
double click on colour swatch on the tool bar and type the Lab numbers there).
Or you could use the colour picker as normal but the above method is better check this text
taken from a thread I will post here.

In talking with the engineer who wrote the Munsell Conversion program at GretagMacbeth,
I realized that we're going to have problems down the road if all we provide are RGB values.
The reason is that RGB is device dependent, and the identical RGB values may (probably will)
look different on two different monitors. There are several reasons for this. One of them is
the internal color space model used by different graphics programs. A low-end graphics program
will likely not allow the user to make changes to the internal RGB color space profile –you'll be
stuck with a hardcoded sRGB space. sRGB roughly corresponds to the color space of a monitor purchased
off the discount shelf at Wal Mart. I use a custom color space called BruceRGB that is suitable for
a wide variety of graphics and prints well on a CMYK printer. There are many choices of color space
profiles in PhotoShop and a set of RGB values will look different in each one.

Lab color is a device independent color space. It corresponds to a purely mathematical model of human
color perception. If we provide L*a*b* values, anyone with a program that supports Lab color
(PhotoShop being one of them) can enter them into the color picker and get the set of RGB values
that are correct for their internal color space profile and attached devices. How well the color
duplicates on a printer or a monitor then depends only on how accurately their devices are profiled
and color-corrected to the internal space profile. I'll still provide the RGB values from my system,
but with a warning that using them will only give you a good approximation of the actual color.
Lab is the Rosetta Stone for communicating the color values.


Heres the colour chips
Attached File  British copy.jpg   539KB   1307 downloads
Attached File  German universal copy.jpg   714.9KB   1306 downloads
Attached File  German-dfw c.jpg   692.26KB   1303 downloads
Attached File  German-gotha gv copy.jpg   792.8KB   1305 downloads
Attached File  German-Albatros colours copy.jpg   828.13KB   1302 downloads
Attached File  German-Fokker copy.jpg   801.57KB   1308 downloads
If you want the photo shop files for the above get them here
http://www.gamefront...ntone_chips_zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gamefront.../files/20334928 … _chips_zip


Here are some useful links
this ones along read but interesting
http://www.theaerodr...e-colors-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/camou … ors-2.html
two more
http://www.theaerodr...e-question.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/camou … stion.html
http://www.theaerodr...doped-wing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … -wing.html
Another intresting one sent to me by ImPeRaToR
http://www.theaerodr...ur-lozenge.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/camou … zenge.html
I hope we can arrive at some good colour chips and get some good info on the colours ;)
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#12 WF2

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 14:23

Awesome work Fubar! I am sure every skinner and the RoF team appreciates your work here and all the work of other here too.
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#13 Fubar

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 17:10

Awesome work Fubar! I am sure every skinner and the RoF team appreciates your work here and all the work of other here too.
Thanks Womenfly2.

When we have more Methuen codes I will convert these and add them to the chips above so if anyone has some, post them here and I will sort them ;). This way we can biuld up a good database of chips which we can all use :D .
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#14 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 18:18

Epic stuff man :)

One small mistype I noticed scanning over it, the light green for the LVG D.IIs should be 26B3, not 27C5. You probably just forgot to change it in PS :)
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#15 J5_Rumey

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:17

Nice stuff Fubar, really nice.
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#16 Fubar

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 00:12

Epic stuff man :)

One small mistype I noticed scanning over it, the light green for the LVG D.IIs should be 26B3, not 27C5. You probably just forgot to change it in PS :)
Thanks ImPeRaToR I've corrected the mistake on above pic and photoshop files.

Guys if you down loaded the first set of photoshop files dont forget to make the text change
as noted by ImPeRaToR or down load the corrected photoshop file from the above link ;) .
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#17 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 13:14

I forgot to point this out sooner (sorry), it might be good to note which colours are for top and bottom, perhaps seperate them by a thin line. The fourth colour for the D.II is the bottom colour in all cases, same goes for the DFW(Av.), (third colour,CDL). However in the latter case a third top colour (unspecified brown) was used but is unknown but should be included anyway. Perhaps you could display a black and white checker pattern and call it "unspecified brown" for completeness sake?

Also I am very interested in the colours you found in the book on the Pfalz D.XII for the "dark" 5 colour lozenge, would be great if you could post them here as well.
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#18 Fubar

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 22:45

Ha Guys quick note

There was a problem with the DFW c.v chip set, 27e4 was not the correct colour but is now
corrected in the above jpg. Sorry gents hope this has not caused problems.
I'l also be updating the layout and adding more converted Methuen-Pantone chips soon.
As I've already stated above these colours are a starting piont ;) .
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#19 Panthercules

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 02:36

Hey Fubar - if you don't already have these on your list, could you add them to this great effort?

Fokker D.VII colors (early):

26E8 = medium green
26D3 = light green

BTW - while this scheme of having the colors grouped by aircraft is very useful, is there any way to create/post a list of these colors in Methuen-code order? I had a few others I needed for the above Fokker scheme, but after plowing through all the ones you've posted so far I finally realized that you'd already posted them. I'm thinking as things go on, when we run into some reference to a Methuen code it would be a lot easier/quicker to be able to look it up in a numerically-ordered list
than to check every plane type one at a time trying to find it.

Either way, this is a great help, and I really appreciate all your efforts here.

Cheers,

Panther
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#20 Fubar

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 20:40

Hey Fubar - if you don't already have these on your list, could you add them to this great effort?

Fokker D.VII colors (early):

26E8 = medium green
26D3 = light green

BTW - while this scheme of having the colors grouped by aircraft is very useful, is there any way to create/post a list of these colors in Methuen-code order? I had a few others I needed for the above Fokker scheme, but after plowing through all the ones you've posted so far I finally realized that you'd already posted them. I'm thinking as things go on, when we run into some reference to a Methuen code it would be a lot easier/quicker to be able to look it up in a numerically-ordered list
than to check every plane type one at a time trying to find it.

Either way, this is a great help, and I really appreciate all your efforts here.

Cheers,

Panther

Thats a good idea I will update the chips as is and also put them in Methuen-code order ;)

I'l sort those fokker codes next week.
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#21 Fubar

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 13:30

Updated the above Methuen-codes see above pic's or get the chips from above download link.
I will also put them in Methuen-code order soon ;)
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#22 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 14:05

Thanks :)
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#23 LordFlasheart

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 14:01

These codes have been very useful, I'm not aware of anywhere else that's got a conversion from Methuen available. Not only useful for RoF skinners, but great for other projects too, which is how this thread caught my eye.

I'm currently looking at colours for the AEG C.IV and saw another of Dan San Abbott's articles on the Aerodrome.

http://www.theaerodr...s-aeg-c-iv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … -c-iv.html

He mentions a greyish-green (27C4), raw sienna (6D6) and greyish blue (23B4) for the second production order in October 1916, the same colours as used in the first production batch.

6D6 is already available on your DFW C.V chart, but I don't think the other two have appeared yet.

Part way through the second production order a third colour was added to the camo mix, and Dan thinks it could be another greyish-green (27D7).

Colours change for the third production batch, and we get pastel green (27A3), greyish-green (27D5) and greyish-ruby (12D7).

If you're interested in producing these colours then I'd be glad to extract more from the article. These would be ones from later production batches.

Lastly, great idea on making a list in Methuen code order. That makes picking the right colour from a passing reference a lot easier, and combines well with the aeroplane specific charts.
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#24 Fubar

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 16:24

These codes have been very useful, I'm not aware of anywhere else that's got a conversion from Methuen available. Not only useful for RoF skinners, but great for other projects too, which is how this thread caught my eye.

I'm currently looking at colours for the AEG C.IV and saw another of Dan San Abbott's articles on the Aerodrome.

http://www.theaerodr...s-aeg-c-iv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … -c-iv.html

He mentions a greyish-green (27C4), raw sienna (6D6) and greyish blue (23B4) for the second production order in October 1916, the same colours as used in the first production batch.

6D6 is already available on your DFW C.V chart, but I don't think the other two have appeared yet.

Part way through the second production order a third colour was added to the camo mix, and Dan thinks it could be another greyish-green (27D7).

Colours change for the third production batch, and we get pastel green (27A3), greyish-green (27D5) and greyish-ruby (12D7).

If you're interested in producing these colours then I'd be glad to extract more from the article. These would be ones from later production batches.

Lastly, great idea on making a list in Methuen code order. That makes picking the right colour from a passing reference a lot easier, and combines well with the aeroplane specific charts.
Hi LordFlasheart
Yes keep the codes coming and I will get them converted to pantone soon ;)
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#25 J2_Wallenberg

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 19:42

Fubar, what source are your Albatros D.II (OAW) colours from? I'm currently working on historic D.IIs, and the OAW scheme looks completely off, and I'm not very experienced in colour research, that's why I am asking for your help here.

I'm surprised, because your D.II (LVG) and D.II (Johannisthal) schemes look perfectly reasonable, as do the lozenge colours for the D.Vs.
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#26 Fubar

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 20:54

Fubar, what source are your Albatros D.II (OAW) colours from? I'm currently working on historic D.IIs, and the OAW scheme looks completely off, and I'm not very experienced in colour research, that's why I am asking for your help here.

I'm surprised, because your D.II (LVG) and D.II (Johannisthal) schemes look perfectly reasonable, as do the lozenge colours for the D.Vs.

Hi J2_Wallenberg

The colours for the Albatros D.II (OAW) were supplied by ImPeRaToR
see post three, However there are many colours used on D.II (OAW),
the colours in these chips are just a few.
I will be updating these chip sets when I get the time.
Heres a good guide by Dan San Abbott http://www.theaerodr...i-aircraft.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … craft.html
Some of the colours in this Article are already in these chip sets hope this helps ;)
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#27 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 23:05

The colours are taken from the guide Dan-San Abbott wrote. Those are the only colours specified by him for the D.II (OAW).

You have to understand that there probably was no strict guide lines how the aircraft were to be camouflaged prior to April 1917 when the mauve-green scheme was introduced, and even after that you still have some oddities like Fokker and others.

So OAW probably just approximated their colours as did LVG, and there is a fair few references from British and French pilots that refer to "red" on the wings.

The D.III Johannisthal should have sported the same colours as the D.II but the D.III OAW was built in a time after mauve-green had been introduced, however a handful or so of early D.III OAW are rumored to have been finished in three-colour terrain camouflage (three colour), those would probably have been similar to the D.II (OAW).
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#28 J2_Wallenberg

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:34

Great thanks to you, Fubar and Imp, for the quick reply. In the next three days I am going to revise the paint jobs with the further reading you provided me.

references from British and French pilots that refer to "red" on the wings.
Now that would make the odd OAW chips sound reasonable to me!

DSA also uses a very reddish rust brown on some D.Is and D.IIs in his Jasta 2 profile book, but those colours are not to be trusted fully, looks like painted with crayons there.
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#29 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:53

Yea, never use profiles for colour references, only to see which areas to paint in what colour. However he tries to get it reasonably close but it will never match it.


You also need to desaturate and lighten the colours considerably I think, and each template has different layers that further alters the appearance. It would seem to me that DSA has a methuen book with lighter chips than the one Fubar has access to.
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#30 J2_Wallenberg

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:59

By tomorrow I should be up and ready with a few WIP pics. I'll experiment with the saturation and in doubt will try to fit them into the Johannisthal and LVG colour range, let's see if there is still the "red" of the accounts without it looking too odd. And before doing so, I'll read DSA's text Fubar linked me to.
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#31 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:15

Yea it's great, I read it a while ago before I made our D.II skins. Back then though I did not have any methuen references so I guess all the colours :D
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#32 LordFlasheart

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:17

Just picking up on some other Methuen codes that DSA mentions and listing them for ease of reference.

Halb.DI and DII in "Sky Camo" some use clear dope 3A4, presumably slightly different to the 4A3 already done. Others are in pale blue, 23A3, already done as the bottom colour for the OAW Alb.DII.

Fokker DI, clear dope, 3A4. Struts and wheel covers light grey, 1C1, see Albatros Top Colours.

Albatros DIII prototypes (2 of them), clear dope linen, 3A4, varnished plywood fuselage, 4B4.

Production Alb.DII machines all in "Terrain Camo". Olive green 3E6 (see DFW CV Top Colours) and rust brown 6E8 (see Albatros Top Colours) top surfaces, pale blue 24B4 (see Albatros Bottom Colours) bottom surface, wings and tailplane. Cowling, spinner, struts etc greenish-grey 1C2. Some machines with varnished fuselages 4B4, some sprayed in patches of 3E6 and 6E8.

I was only going to mention early machines, but I thought a note on Jasta 11 red worth mentioning, given as 10A8.
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#33 Fubar

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 13:43

Just picking up on some other Methuen codes that DSA mentions and listing them for ease of reference.

Halb.DI and DII in "Sky Camo" some use clear dope 3A4, presumably slightly different to the 4A3 already done. Others are in pale blue, 23A3, already done as the bottom colour for the OAW Alb.DII.

Fokker DI, clear dope, 3A4. Struts and wheel covers light grey, 1C1, see Albatros Top Colours.

Albatros DIII prototypes (2 of them), clear dope linen, 3A4, varnished plywood fuselage, 4B4.

Production Alb.DII machines all in "Terrain Camo". Olive green 3E6 (see DFW CV Top Colours) and rust brown 6E8 (see Albatros Top Colours) top surfaces, pale blue 24B4 (see Albatros Bottom Colours) bottom surface, wings and tailplane. Cowling, spinner, struts etc greenish-grey 1C2. Some machines with varnished fuselages 4B4, some sprayed in patches of 3E6 and 6E8.

I was only going to mention early machines, but I thought a note on Jasta 11 red worth mentioning, given as 10A8.
Thanks for these LordFlasheart I'm getting a list together to change more Methuen codes into Pan tone colours next week ;)
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#34 WF2

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:58

Here are some wood grain plywood panel samples that can be used for skinning, very nicely done … hope its useful.

Check in out on this MODEL!

Image

Image

Image

Image
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#35 J2_Wallenberg

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 17:40

Thank you for those finds, Womenfly2!

Actually, Nos. 2 and 3 aren't quite useful because they're split into too many parts… thanks anyway!
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#36 LW_Jupes

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 15:02

This is an impressive thread, and once completed, I hope Fubar's work gets added to the "Useful Materials" list because I feel it's that important; not just for proper research historically, but for consistency of the skins.

Excellent work Fubar (and those who added!).
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#37 Fubar

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 17:58

This is an impressive thread, and once completed, I hope Fubar's work gets added to the "Useful Materials" list because I feel it's that important; not just for proper research historically, but for consistency of the skins.

Excellent work Fubar (and those who added!).

Thanks LW_Jupes :S!:

Added more colour chips to above chip sets see post 10 ;)
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#38 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:59

If you have time it would be great if you could look these up Foobar:

DFW C.V (LVG) first colour pattern (top)
dull magenta 14E3
dull green 26D4
lilac 15b4

bottom is probably CDL

What is depicted on the card is a DFW C.V (LVG) from the second 1917 order for 100 C.V (LVG) 2100/17 to 2199/17. The colors of the first color pattern variant, (C.2100/17-to about C2130/17) were dull magenta, 14E3 dull green,26D4 and lilac,15b4.

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#39 WF2

WF2
  • Posts: 1485

Posted 17 May 2011 - 13:27

Maybe of interest or help on colors … www.theaerodrome.com/forum/camouflage-markings/52567-hey-grahamb-resene-colour-matching.html

Hope it helps.
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#40 Fubar

Fubar
  • Posts: 625

Posted 29 May 2011 - 19:48

If you have time it would be great if you could look these up Foobar:

DFW C.V (LVG) first colour pattern (top)
dull magenta 14E3
dull green 26D4
lilac 15b4

bottom is probably CDL

What is depicted on the card is a DFW C.V (LVG) from the second 1917 order for 100 C.V (LVG) 2100/17 to 2199/17. The colors of the first color pattern variant, (C.2100/17-to about C2130/17) were dull magenta, 14E3 dull green,26D4 and lilac,15b4.

I'l get these translated into pan tone colours soon
but if anyone has anymore Methuen codes that need to be changed into pan tones please post soon ;)
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