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#1 Acasto

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 21:40

Hi all!

Image

Given my interest in a campaign dynamic would like to ask if it was possible to introduce a few infantry units; I think that infantry units can be very interesting for the front's evolution.

Can you create 3D models with minimal strain?

Thx for attention!
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#2 Brutal_Baron

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 21:59

An animated airfield and movement along the trenches would be a nice touch and that subjuect has been brought up several times. Those requested features would be a low priority for the ROF team. I am not sure how much impact those extra animations would have on people with slower computers. An animated "live" airfield would be a real immersion addition.
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#3 Riemann73

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 22:32

In
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#4 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 22:52

Janes had infantry and deer running across the landscape, and if you landed and got close enough to a deer to shoot it, it even made a dying noise. Also the tanks and artillery would fight eachother and whanot :)
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#5 elephant

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 22:54

Yes, Yes!
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#6 catchov

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:12

And badgers :) It's been mentioned before. We simply must have them 8-)
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#7 charlo

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:11

Over at another forum that many here monitor for the latest news on CoD is a very interesting thread called "Give me some "holy sh… did that just happen" ideas".

I'm still way too new to flight simming to know how practical or unique most of the ideas posted there are, but one 3-year-old video someone posted to that thread was particularly interesting for future games - Euphoria human motion engine.

Charlo
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#8 hq_Overmax

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 08:37

infantery would be cool for sure. it's nice in Black Shark to see them desperately trying to run away until me rockets blow everything up. But apart from sadistical satisfaction they are 3D models afterall and when moving and shooting need a bit of AI. Now that might work in Black Shark since it's not as high-end as RoF. Also in Black Shark you attack like a rebel camp with 10-20 soldiers. With realistic settings in RoF there would be thousand of soldiers in jsut a tiny section of the trenches. So i guess it's not really possible.

You can however make a bit of infantery yourself by placing machine gunner on the trenches.
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#9 hq_Jorri

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 09:42

" A dying noise"? How crude…
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#10 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 16:29

" A dying noise"? How crude…

What would you want me to call it? wasn't quite screaming, was more like HUAH! :lol: :)

I had auctually created a mission for janes for there to be an entire battle on the ground and I flew around and watched it, occasionally dropping bombs and firing missiles at enemy tanks :) I should make a quick video of that…
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#11 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 17:06

I made a very quick video, was having joystick problems (yet again) so the elevators werent working very well, and due to my new video card, the graphics glitch a lot. But I think I got some good views of the tanks, If they could make a ground war in 98' then they can do it in 2011!

http://www.xfire.com/video/409ca4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.xfire.com/video/409ca4/
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#12 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 17:10

I can't head any dying noises.
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#13 Acasto

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 18:59

In my opinion into RoF's editor there are a big hole without more artilleries and some infantries units. But this is my opinion…

I think this is a little work but with a big utility for the mission editor….

:roll:
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#14 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 00:23

I think the graphical strain is a big issue but as mentioned before the soldiers will need AI which is currently taxing enough already for the MP servers. While in SP you can theoretically ignore what is going in in areas that are not visited by the player in MP the AI will have to remain active most of the time.
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#15 WF2

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 00:51

Why not have AA so thick you have a 50-50 chance to get through it. :shock:
… and does the AA look like this? … and does it rock your machine?


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#16 redbaron1917

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:06

"I am not sure how much impact those extra animations would have on people with slower computers."

Yes I had jane's WW2 fighters it had moving infantry & tanks ,jeeps etc all moving . If we are worried about slow computers then just have an option to click off the animations. This sim isn't realy designed for SLOW COMPUTERS anyway! The Aerodromes should have aircraft parts laying about and some moving people besides just the AA crews this would be nice eye candy, adds atmosphere–they are about as lively as a graveyard right now :shock: :o :roll:
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#17 hq_Overmax

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:29

Hm the first animated persons i want to see in RoF are the mechanics throwing on my prop and then run away when i start rolling. :D
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#18 Flashy

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:51

"I am not sure how much impact those extra animations would have on people with slower computers."

Yes I had jane's WW2 fighters it had moving infantry & tanks ,jeeps etc all moving . If we are worried about slow computers then just have an option to click off the animations. This sim isn't realy designed for SLOW COMPUTERS anyway! The Aerodromes should have aircraft parts laying about and some moving people besides just the AA crews this would be nice eye candy, adds atmosphere–they are about as lively as a graveyard right now :shock: :o :roll:

I think the real problem is that AI calculations are only done in 1 thread. This means that even if you are running a 5.0ghz overclocked beast, you can only use 1 core (1 thread) to do the AI calcs. So you are restricted to 5.0ghz max for AI calcs, which is only really good for about 200-300 objects in singleplayer. In multiplayer, we are pretty much screwed because the amount of network traffic that that many objects would generate, even assuming that everyones computer could handle it, would kill performance and create massive lag.

Basically, it seems that RoF will never be able to handle large numbers of ground objects in multiplayer, because it seems it just wasnt designed to do that. Maybe in the future we can get a reworked AI logic that can use multiple cores, or maybe RoF2 will have better support for lots of AI objects :)
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#19 DarkKnight47

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:09

Why not have AA so thick you have a 50-50 chance to get through it. :shock:
… and does the AA look like this? … and does it rock your machine?

Not so much fire when the shell explodes I guess… you can look up any video from WW2 mostly, during day raids, you'll see.
The biggest danger of flak were shrapnels, they could literally cut your plane apart, plus of course could maim and kill pilots and crew - higher altitude flak really wasn't about direct hits. When they scored one though, it was a death warrant for sure.
And yes, it does rock your machine due to pressure wave, but since this happens when the shell explodes close to your plane, you've got more pressing problems than shimmies :)

I read a story about czechoslovak pilot during WW2, he was over France and german flak shot about 4 feet of his Spitfire's wing of, just one shell. Luckily he was really strong guy and managed to get back ti England and land safely. Technicians were buffed at how the hell did he managed to fly that thing when they saw the damage :)
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#20 150GCT_Veltro

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:40

100% agree with infantry request, static or not.
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#21 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:01

In ww1 they had neither reliable fuses nor radar to have the grenades explode close enough to the intented target with any consistency.
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#22 von_Semmel

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:19

yes put it into the game, please…

http://www.figuren-m...nterie-1916.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.figuren-m...lbau.de/deutsch … e-1916.jpg
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#23 EclecticRazor

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:30

We want it all…and we want it now. Getting into more detail would be an atmospheric asset, but it would be demanding on the engine at the least. Besides, even then the animations would have to be at least as good as the pilots. I don't see that level of immersion for awhile. At least not an army attacking across no-man's land.

Perhaps a mechanic to spin the prop, grab the chocks and wish me luck with a wave goodbye. That would be one figure and it could be done easily enough. Doing that one figure would giver the ROF Team an idea of how many could be used without choking the game. If feasible, a few lines of infantry columns would be a nice touch, perhaps scattering and shooting back during a strafing run.

All this wish-list is doing is making me drool. The point is that the quality of any build is most important - better no figures than something stiff or goofy.
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#24 redbaron1917

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 07:23

Ja Ja das infantry ist gut for the sim! :D :P
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#25 EclecticRazor

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 00:09

charlo,

Wow! Exciting Vid. This is type of AI and 3d modeling gamers will be drooling over. Talk about immersive.
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#26 Huetz

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 03:13

I noticed something early when the game was out: the trees look good compared to other sims, although you can't really tell of what sort they are as they are the same in summer and winter. ;)

It looks to me as if they are some sort of low poly 3d trunk and 2d foliage that moves with your POV. Wouldnt that work for some low quality infantry to fill the mud and the trenches? Technically from above they would not be that visible (you would just notice "something" down there) so why bother with high quality stuff? (Maybe at a later point)

If the devs can also come up with an AI routine that makes a huge block of those low quality 2d… "somethings" move (back, forth and stop) it also shouldn't be too much of a hit on the workload. Technically if you have a huge number of those move in a group together, you would only need to model one AI-lead per group. Make it 200 sprites or whatever they are called per group and give them different formations (for the mission makers to add diversity) and I think one would be able to crowd certain areas pretty good.

Now as you might see from this post, I am by no means a software engineer, so if the post is stupid or the idea complete BS, feel free to enlighten me ;)
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#27 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 03:54

I noticed something early when the game was out: the trees look good compared to other sims, although you can't really tell of what sort they are as they are the same in summer and winter. ;)

It looks to me as if they are some sort of low poly 3d trunk and 2d foliage that moves with your POV. Wouldnt that work for some low quality infantry to fill the mud and the trenches? Technically from above they would not be that visible (you would just notice "something" down there) so why bother with high quality stuff? (Maybe at a later point)

If the devs can also come up with an AI routine that makes a huge block of those low quality 2d… "somethings" move (back, forth and stop) it also shouldn't be too much of a hit on the workload. Technically if you have a huge number of those move in a group together, you would only need to model one AI-lead per group. Make it 200 sprites or whatever they are called per group and give them different formations (for the mission makers to add diversity) and I think one would be able to crowd certain areas pretty good.

Now as you might see from this post, I am by no means a software engineer, so if the post is stupid or the idea complete BS, feel free to enlighten me ;)

Check out my video on page 2 :)
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#28 Flashy

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:56

I noticed something early when the game was out: the trees look good compared to other sims, although you can't really tell of what sort they are as they are the same in summer and winter. ;)

It looks to me as if they are some sort of low poly 3d trunk and 2d foliage that moves with your POV. Wouldnt that work for some low quality infantry to fill the mud and the trenches? Technically from above they would not be that visible (you would just notice "something" down there) so why bother with high quality stuff? (Maybe at a later point)

If the devs can also come up with an AI routine that makes a huge block of those low quality 2d… "somethings" move (back, forth and stop) it also shouldn't be too much of a hit on the workload. Technically if you have a huge number of those move in a group together, you would only need to model one AI-lead per group. Make it 200 sprites or whatever they are called per group and give them different formations (for the mission makers to add diversity) and I think one would be able to crowd certain areas pretty good.

Now as you might see from this post, I am by no means a software engineer, so if the post is stupid or the idea complete BS, feel free to enlighten me ;)


hmmm, that is an idea actually. I see there is an option to replace the model of a AI vehicle with a another model. Maybe we could make an animated sprite model of hundreds of men, and then just replace the model of a tank with that sprite? Then you would only have the AI workload of one tank for every couple hundred men. This might be something we can do without any dev team help, but we would need someone who knows more about it to comment. I dont know anything about creating a sprite or whether we could even import it into the ME…
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#29 HotTom

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:02

The ground units in Falcon 4.0 were just sprites (although well enough modeled that you could easily identify types; you could clearly distinguish a T-55 from a T-72 if you knew what discriminators to look for).

Infantry also were sprites with correct uniforms and weapons.

But attacking ground targets was part of F4 from Day 1.

Is it even on RoF's list for the future? I've never seen it mentioned. The bombers need targets… ;)
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#30 flapping-brown

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:28

i remember a ww1 game i played long ago ,that had troops going across a field but you could not shoot em they kept coming !…..in rof there are tanks going across the field,vehicle columns trains etc….all moving and im sure theres a lot more i have missed as havent got into the depths of the game ,like making missions as i did in il2……one sees the odd gun or machine gunner sometimes but as said the trenches airfields are minimal content.
yes it would be magnificent to have attacking infantry and jeez defenders in trenches but wow the programming must be a bit testing even for our geneii guys……and thinks it may mean our poor pcs will have to leap into another expensive zone.
so the odd moving mechanic or vehicle on airfields methinks will be possible with not too much of a price to pay?…..there you are devs go go go.
hell wouldnt it be fantastic to reproduce the actual battles with thousands mown down by machine guns ,the poison gas clouds, the wind changes, just imagine but then we are going away from a flight sim game and into a different sort of campaign game …..so maybe best to stay with the flying thing and a good but not outrageous pc setup?
nice thought though ………thinks again in 10 years time it will be the norm i bet.

flapping-brown
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#31 WWSittingduck

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 13:41

definatly +1 on the infantry.

but fear they would be the same as the MG, ie, they would not appear until you are really close, or zoomed in. as such, they will tend to blink in and out.
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#32 redbaron1917

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 23:18

I think if Jane's WW2 fighters had infantry so can we !
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#33 Gimpy117

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:59

the problem is, the Flight side of ROF already takes A LOT OF RESOURCES. people shooting each-other would be nice, but they'd have to be realy low quality to be in any great number
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#34 Mogster

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 14:29

I think flight sim engines need to be designed with this stuff in mind from the start. ROF seems to have been designed with online dogfights being the focus, large numbers of mobile ground units and how to deal with them never entered the equation. What's done is done.

When you read Peter Hart's books, and there's pilots accounts of viewing the great WW1 battles sometimes from as low as 100m it makes me wonder when we'll be able to see that sort of stuff in a sim. I've pretty much given up on seeing massed infantry in ROF so I don't go on about it anymore, the engine doesn't appear to be capable of that sort of stuff without extreme modification. Maybe in ROF2?

I'm sure seeing a simplified Total War style battle on the terrain is possible with todays tech but it would take a differeent approach and some creative programming to make it happen. Maybe with DX11. The problem is with the limited resources available for flight sim development we tend to end up with the same engine, with only slight modification, being used for 10 years. Flight sims lag behind other games graphically by a huge ammount. Its not just that current games look pretty but they run well on quite low end hardware, they have to as the XB360 and PS3 are 5 years or so old now. Dev teams making titles for consoles can have shed loads of money available to create new engines and optimise them though unlike your typical flight sim team.
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#35 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 23:03

I think if Jane's WW2 fighters had infantry so can we !

+1 :D

Janes rocked, I hope to see that level of detail in ROF
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#36 redbaron1917

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 20:39

WELL I CAN UNDERSTAND THE LOSS OF SOME FRAME RATES THATS WHY A SWITCH TO TURN OFF OR ON WOULD WORK–for lower speed computers. There should be at least more static debris ,plane parts crew etc at aerodromes which now are a bit like a graveyard–BTW I haven't seen any grave yards near the towns? Mind you this IS a fantastic sim as it is. I'm only offering that this stuff would make it the best ever!
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#37 Flashy

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:24

definatly +1 on the infantry.

but fear they would be the same as the MG, ie, they would not appear until you are really close, or zoomed in. as such, they will tend to blink in and out.

This is a concern, yes. I was playing around the other day with trying to re-create the 3rd battle of the Ainse, and I had a cool little front line with bunkers and machine gunners and tanks attacking it etc and, granted, it looked quite cool if you were flying low enough to watch it, but the objects only really became visible at about 500 meters, so if the player didnt know there was a battle there, they would likely fly right over it without it ever popping into view! It kinda makes it pointless to try create a living environment when the vast majority of players wont even see it! You basically have to know that something is happening in an exact spot to be able to see it from the air.
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#38 redbaron1917

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 00:16

It kinda makes it pointless to try create a living environment when the vast majority of players wont even see it! You basically have to know that something is happening in an exact spot to be able to see it from the air.

True but I remember a Janes mission I created that a hugh German unit including tanks lots infantry (a battle of the bulge type scenario), lots of soldiers attacking an airfield of which i was about to take off—I also had some American troops there I watched an amazing ground battle from the cockpit until a panzer shell blew off my left wing–Janes was done with low end computers compared to today's so I don't doubt it can be done but I could be mistaken.Would be neat to see little men attacking across a front trench but the trenches appear to be flat so perhaps this IS NOT FEASIBLE.
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#39 hq_Jorri

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 06:47

I think flight sim engines need to be designed with this stuff in mind from the start. ROF seems to have been designed with online dogfights being the focus, large numbers of mobile ground units and how to deal with them never entered the equation. What's done is done.

When you read Peter Hart's books, and there's pilots accounts of viewing the great WW1 battles sometimes from as low as 100m it makes me wonder when we'll be able to see that sort of stuff in a sim. I've pretty much given up on seeing massed infantry in ROF so I don't go on about it anymore, the engine doesn't appear to be capable of that sort of stuff without extreme modification. Maybe in ROF2?

I'm sure seeing a simplified Total War style battle on the terrain is possible with todays tech but it would take a differeent approach and some creative programming to make it happen. Maybe with DX11. The problem is with the limited resources available for flight sim development we tend to end up with the same engine, with only slight modification, being used for 10 years. Flight sims lag behind other games graphically by a huge ammount. Its not just that current games look pretty but they run well on quite low end hardware, they have to as the XB360 and PS3 are 5 years or so old now. Dev teams making titles for consoles can have shed loads of money available to create new engines and optimise them though unlike your typical flight sim team.

Wise words.
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#40 zachanscom

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:45

about feasibility…easily. using a good lod system with close ups being high detailed infantry models. with the speed and height you're going, you'll notice maybe a dozen out of possible hundreds in the highest lod setting. then the further away, the units can transition into low polygons until finally little sprites and dots on the field.
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