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Project #1 - Distances and Headings to All Airfields


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#81 GeezerGamer

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 05:17

Well if a third party person smarter than me was trying to build an application that used this info, this would be the type of document I would be trying to get. We like to issue mission maps ahead of inter squad events and being able to publish waypoints, headings , distances and travel times would be very helpful. A typical map would have target points that don't exist on the map so the onscreen measuring tools are still needed.

PS (special thanks to Tushka and Peter, I stole some of your excel formulas to get my waypoint sheet to work)

Attached Files


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#82 hq_Peter_Zvan

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 06:59

Thank you for the plane Jason - will write you a PM.
I will also see if I can add something else that is usefull to the charts.

Its an import error Tushka. Even excel 2003 is not too happy sometimes with that ammount of data.

Geezer - that is hte right layout that any mission designer would love to see -> and I am preety sure that the pilots would love seeing that data with the mission brief for the section of the map where the mission is conducted.

Maybe for filtering the data all the positions in the map should also be assigned quadrants?
That way you could sort out the data that you want to see way quicker.
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#83 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
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Posted 13 January 2011 - 18:17

That looks great, Geezer! And it is a perfect use for the data we've collected.

Peter, your idea of sorting by map location does sound useful. Publishing this as four quadrants (well, including all destinations but making the origins in only one quarter) would reduce the size of the distributed files and reduce the chance of getting an import error like I do with the current A-F file. Quadrant 1 might be A1-C3, quadrant 2, A4-C3, etc.

Can you easily sort the horizontal (origin) map positions by major square first and then alphabetical within that? I don't know how to do that. I'd leave the destinations as alphabetical but add the printed map coordinates for each destination (taken from the current horizontal info before sorting)… but once again I don't know how to transform a row into a column or vice versa. I don't know Excel. I just know the math. :)

I've applied my small tweak to a tiny portion of Jason's table and made a few format changes as an example… making the title "Distance, Headings and Time…", correcting the spelling of "cruising", adding Map coordinates on the left, and merging the duplicated data lines on the left for aesthetic reasons. :)

I'd do more, but I haven't been able to get macros to work in my Open Office Calc… it doesn't like my JRE, yet I have the (two) latest versions!

Attached File  small-tweak2.zip   8.85KB   84 downloads
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#84 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
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Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:08

Thanks for the unexpected honor, Jason!
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#85 bluesideup

bluesideup
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Posted 18 January 2011 - 15:11

x test.
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#86 bluesideup

bluesideup
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Posted 18 January 2011 - 15:30

As you mentioned, unless a medieval monastery full of monk/scribes willing to tediously work 8 hours a day can be found, I don't think a database for 300 cities is going to be created anytime soon. It'll take 180,0000 point (90k for headings and 90k more for distance) to produce a "look-up" table in a spreadsheet for 300 cities. Nevertheless, I spend a little time over the weekend making a proof-of-concept data base with 25 cities from the Verdun sector. Geezer and I had been chatting about it and the use of the protractor widget and the universal desktop ruler he found accelerated the process of entering data points quite nicely. I automated some functions and used Naturally Speaking to enter the data by voice.(there may be some data point input inaccuracies… mind you, I'm no math wizard or programmer.)

If you're curious to look at it, here is the database location:

http://uploading.com...alculator.xlsx/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://uploading.com...es/34mb883a/Cro … ator.xlsx/

This is definitively the "brute force" approach – but it works.

The second page of the spreadsheet is useful for anyone who wishes to print a section of the RoF (1cm = 7km) map, draw a line between 2 points and determine the distance.The spreadsheet recalibrates the distance that 1 cm represents for whatever magnification the map is printed at and returns the distance in km between the 2 points. Heading can be done the old fashioned way with a $12 CP-R plotter available online (http://www.westernca...p?productid=183" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.westernca...al.com/store/pr … ductid=183)

BH Wingover

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#87 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
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Posted 18 January 2011 - 17:06

Well it might have taken monks using quill and parchment a long time, but three laypeople did the spreadsheet for over 600 locations in two and a half days using more modern tools. :)
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#88 bluesideup

bluesideup
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Posted 20 January 2011 - 14:24

Wow. That's 360,000 points in two and a half days or 120,000 points per laypeople. I would love to have those modern tools.
Using a on-screen protractor and the desktop-ruler I mentioned above for just 25 points gave me a much too good idea of how the quill and parchment boys must have felt…
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#89 rodman

rodman
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  • LocationWyoming

Posted 28 March 2011 - 22:55

Excuse me please Jason..Just notice in upper right conner of my ROF map that the scale is 1:800 000 (1cm - 8km) not (1cm - 7km)..Map was provided with purchase of ROF software.. Is this the same map u are refering to in ur second post about distances and headings… I am no math whiz also..Just happened to notice it…Maybe there's a different map or this is a misprint..Noticed a lot of discussion about the math in following posts..Please check map scale again…
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#90 matthu

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 22:07

hey man it ok if you stink at math. I stink a writing well it is true but it ok I getting better
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#91 effte

effte
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Posted 23 May 2011 - 19:22

With all said and done, I'll step in and confuscate matters… ;)

I happen to work with aeronautical navigation data, and while the trig used here will probably yield results which are definitely good enough for the purpose, I figure some may be interested in how we'd do it if it was for real world navigation. I won't type out the minutiae, as it is easily googleable (is that a word?) once you know the terms to search for.

First, you need to convert the coordinates to polar coordinates (i e latitude and longitude). Then you apply a formula known as Vicenty's Inverse Formula, which will give you the true heading at each end of the course line between the two points.

The earth is not flat, and the shortest route (the great circle route - plenty of information available through Google) between two points will typically not appear as a straight line in most map projections. It will describe an arc, meaning the initial heading when going from A to B will not be the same as the initial heading when going from B to A. The heading to fly will vary along the route.

Then use Vicenty's Formula (the non-inverse one) to calculate the great circle distance.

Finally, there's the whole debacle of true headings vs magnetic headings. That will probably require developer assistance to crack. We don't know if magnetic variation is simulated and then if it is simulated as one value in the entire theatre or if it, more realistically, varies with location.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that this would definitely be over the top for the intended purpose, as the effects on distances and headings are likely smaller than the achievable precision in flying and aircraft performance anyway - with the exception of magnetic variation, which likely has to be considered if it is simulated and if you want to end up where you intend to.

Cheers,
Fred
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#92 effte

effte
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Posted 24 May 2011 - 21:17

I can't seem to edit the previous message. I guess there's a time limit for edits.

I ran some quick calcs to see how much of an error was introduced. Using Lille and Toul, as they're quite some distance apart and easily found on a current map for convenient coordinate retrieval, the Excel sheet gives a distance of 298.6 km and a track of 316/136 degrees to/from Toul.

Using the coordinates

Lille: 50*37'54.13"N 003*03'42.95E
Toul: 45*40'47.63"N 005*53'34.12"E

which is pretty close to the center of the city dots in the ROF map, the great circle distance is calculated to 298.13 km, so more or less spot on there. The initial track from Lille to Toul is calculated to 135 degrees, so again very close. The return leg is where it gets interesting and shows some of the intricacy of long distance navigation though, as the initial track is 317 degrees - not 315, as you might expect.

All in all though, a few hundred meters off on the distance and a degree or two off on the heading - I think we can say that the spreadsheet is verified as being very well within the limits of good enough for the purpose.

Can I get a nerd badge on my RoF start screen now? If not, I'll give you the tracks with two decimals… :S!:

Cheers,
Fred
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#93 GandalfTheGrey

GandalfTheGrey
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Posted 26 August 2011 - 15:55

If I had the authority (you'd get your nerd badge). Just one thing wasn't clear where u spoke about converting … to polar co-ordinates. Please add just a brief explanation of what polar co-ordinates are. Something like:

In mathematics, the polar coordinate system is a two-dimensional coordinate system in which each point on a plane is determined by a distance from a fixed point and an angle from a fixed direction.

The fixed point (analogous to the origin of a Cartesian system) is called the pole, and the ray from the pole in the fixed direction is the polar axis. The distance from the pole is called the radial coordinate or radius, and the angle is the angular coordinate, polar angle, or azimuth (Wiki)
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#94 GandalfTheGrey

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 15:56

A little of topic

Jason I know this doesn't belong here. Can we please have a South African flag (the new one) in ROF.

Pretty please with HONEY on top?
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#95 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
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Posted 08 December 2011 - 18:45

Would it be possible for Viks to post a new version of the map positions of named sites on the map (similar to the one on page 2 of this thread)? Release 1.020 had many new places added by Vanderstock, and if any of these are named pleces (i.e. their names show on in-game maps) they could be useful navigation references.
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#96 Trooper117

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 19:31

Yes please!
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#97 halsfury

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:35

How about a quick heading generator in campaign mission briefings? You could implement a compass bug that would work with the 3D model of a compass quite easily

The compass bug would be most helpful though
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#98 Dr.Zebra

Dr.Zebra
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 23:44

The earth is not flat, and the shortest route (the great circle route - plenty of information available through Google) between two points will typically not appear as a straight line in most map projections. It will describe an arc, meaning the initial heading when going from A to B will not be the same as the initial heading when going from B to A. The heading to fly will vary along the route.

Finally, there's the whole debacle of true headings vs magnetic headings. That will probably require developer assistance to crack. We don't know if magnetic variation is simulated and then if it is simulated as one value in the entire theatre or if it, more realistically, varies with location.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that this would definitely be over the top for the intended purpose, as the effects on distances and headings are likely smaller than the achievable precision in flying and aircraft performance anyway - with the exception of magnetic variation, which likely has to be considered if it is simulated and if you want to end up where you intend to.



VFR general aviation, it may sound comic,
we refuse to go all orthodromic
with more time, fuel and loxodromes
we get safly back to our homes.

a calculated great circle line,
and changing heading all along
invites errors all the time

a wind triangle would suffer, too
and alas, who´s a math-guru?
precision flight is just enough,
with isogones, wind and stuff

we therefore have a holding line,
to catch us up, when we´r out too far
who looks outside will do just fine.

edit: ok, my lyrical phase just ended, but:

when you are allready at it, and have the data, woulnd´t it make sense to give it out (like scripted, autmated in the briefings etc.) in the form of a steering course? i.e: wind correction angle included, (as i think, magnetism is not simulated, ie, deviation in nature and the aircraft is neglectable)it is a trivial math thing.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Wind_triangle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....i/Wind_triangle

on the wild side: far more practical then great circle thoughts and map projections would be nav info like safty-line-cathces (i.e. large terrain features that that you would come to, even if you get lost and fly by your objective (like a river–> river names ;=) ) and for the far-out-gotha night-raid-to-london guys min. safe alt. (at least thats what todays vfr-maps like to put in: heights)
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#99 =FI=Armitage

=FI=Armitage
  • Posts: 1

Posted 06 April 2012 - 18:56

Hi all new to ROF after spending a lot of time flying IL2. Anyway I noticed this thread and though the spreadsheet was great but a little hard to scroll through. I've taken the data you have in the spread and wrote a little web page the dynamically calculates all the data between any locations that the user selects.
It can be found at http://www.ecca.me/s...aringangle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ecca.me/s...es/rofbearingan … angle.html
Its a bit basic but if people find it useful I will improve the appearance. I can create as a windows gadget (or exe) if anyone wants a copy.

Any other utilities required?
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#100 Delta88

Delta88
  • Posts: 3

Posted 11 August 2012 - 00:37

Make the bottom left corner 0,0. that way all the co-ords will be positive values. Easier I think, to write the program with all positive numbers.
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#101 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
  • Posts: 588

Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:07

Would it be possible for Viks to post a new version of the map positions of named sites on the channel map (similar to the one on page 2 of this thread for the main front-line map)? They would be useful navigation references.
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#102 WF2

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:35

Well if you plotted all the airfield and cities on the RoF map by using coordinates, then you could make a simple program to click on one airfield to the other. This would give you distance and heading.

I use Foreflight on my iPad in real flying that has an on screen scale for this purpose.

Just my 2 cents.
~WF2
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#103 =69.GIAP=TUSHKA

=69.GIAP=TUSHKA
  • Posts: 588

Posted 30 January 2013 - 17:37

WF2, good on ya!

However, I'd also like this mapping for my log parser. So it can report not just what happened, but where it happened. For a recent example see Yankee Doodle Mission 18 Report

I can develop such a mapping myself from the mission editor, but it is a bit tedious, and I'd prefer not to reinvent that particular wheel if it already exists. :)
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