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"The Death of the Red Baron" - A RoF film (the Voss sequel!)


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#41 Gisbod

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 06:54

Absolutely.. Certainly wish I'd included that.. The problem I found was that there were so many differing accounts of the action - and Jim Millers account differs from my source.. But he certainly sounds like he knows what he's talking about!

There are still questions though.. Why did Brown attack then be a few Kms away from Richthofen while his friend May was still in trouble? And why May was utterly convinced Brown shot him down?
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#42 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:32

It's not like May had the best view on things and it makes sense that before anything is known about the people who fired from the ground, May credits his friend and tutor who went after him to save his life, which Brown did.
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#43 Gisbod

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 06:21

That's true.. And There may well have been a degree of truth in the British authorities intervening and "giving" the kill to Brown for the sake of PR - But reading his combat report on the action - it's quite specific about shooting the Triplane down and observing the crash, but maybe that was all part of the plot!
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#44 =FB=Chapay

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 18:46



Hope you like it! :P

I hope you need those information ;)

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#45 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 20:37

Amazing - helluva good job on this. Shame about the slightly limited plane set! :)
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#46 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 20:43

Very nice movie. Too bad there are no single infantry modles with the Enfield rifle in game, you could have also moddled Snowy Evans who was recently given credit for the kill on MvR as he was the only shooter that could have fired a round at an angle that would actually match the wounds Richthofen had received. A very lucky shot indeed.

Great work!

Not 100% on this the thing about planes is that they can roll presenting different angles to shooters - slight turbulence or evasive action from Brown or ground fire could have turned the plane to the right angle or a richochet.

We'll never know but you're right it was almost certainly ground fire.

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it and the work that went into it.

I'm in awe of this video!! :)
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#47 rabu

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:02

The thing I don't get is why so many are so eager to say Brown didn't shoot him? I've seen all the latest videos that try to dispute Brown's shot and say that it had to be the ground shooters, etc., They set up elaborate computer simulations with trajectory lines, etc., etc., but I'm not convinced by any of it, because none of it is proof positive.. hell, it's not like they had black boxes to open and study back then. No one really knows for sure what angle RB's plane was at when it was hit, or exactly what the position of Brown was, it's all based on different accounts and conjecture and that's as good as witnesses at a car accident. IMHO You can make anything convincing if you stage it toward what you want to prove, especially when there is so little concrete evidence.

The point is.. wouldn't you rather have the Red Baron killed by an ace pilot, instead of some flunky on the ground who got lucky with a machine gun? I would, that would be a much more noble way to go. It seems like there is this effort today to historically wipe out any noble or famous historical figures or events and belittle them. Brown didn't brag about it and even refused to talk about it for years afterward, he simply recounted that he was just doing his job. To me he was a hero for taking down the magical Red Baron and it was a huge blow to the Germans to loose what appeared to be an immortal ace.
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#48 Gisbod

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 06:58

I hope you need those information ;)

http://www.facebook....id=103226508613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.facebook....album.php?aid=1 … 3226508613

:)

Brilliant! Thanks.. I'll certainly have a look at that scenario..

I can't see a Lanoe Hawker skin in the packs, but I do remember one being voted on? Is it just not out yet or have I missed something? :geek:
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#49 Gisbod

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 07:08

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it.

I did try my best, but it's either a nose over or a complete wreck - In reality it was a heavy landing in which the wheels collapsed - Try replicating that - The wheels and frame in game seem to be made of solid titanium! :roll: I'd like to see that improved upon for the future of the damage model (along with the front end losing some of it's invincibility in a diving crash) (being super picky, I know! :lol: )
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#50 Huetz

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:04



Hope you like it! :P

I hope you need those information ;)

http://www.facebook....id=103226508613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.facebook....album.php?aid=1 … 3226508613

:)


Thx for posting this! I hope you will make that your next project as well Gisbod! ;)
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#51 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:28

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it.

I did try my best, but it's either a nose over or a complete wreck - In reality it was a heavy landing in which the wheels collapsed - Try replicating that - The wheels and frame in game seem to be made of solid titanium! :roll: I'd like to see that improved upon for the future of the damage model (along with the front end losing some of it's invincibility in a diving crash) (being super picky, I know! :lol: )

Agreed the landing gear is very strong in game.
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#52 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:31

The thing I don't get is why so many are so eager to say Brown didn't shoot him? I've seen all the latest videos that try to dispute Brown's shot and say that it had to be the ground shooters, etc., They set up elaborate computer simulations with trajectory lines, etc., etc., but I'm not convinced by any of it, because none of it is proof positive.. hell, it's not like they had black boxes to open and study back then. No one really knows for sure what angle RB's plane was at when it was hit, or exactly what the position of Brown was, it's all based on different accounts and conjecture and that's as good as witnesses at a car accident. IMHO You can make anything convincing if you stage it toward what you want to prove, especially when there is so little concrete evidence.

The point is.. wouldn't you rather have the Red Baron killed by an ace pilot, instead of some flunky on the ground who got lucky with a machine gun? I would, that would be a much more noble way to go. It seems like there is this effort today to historically wipe out any noble or famous historical figures or events and belittle them. Brown didn't brag about it and even refused to talk about it for years afterward, he simply recounted that he was just doing his job. To me he was a hero for taking down the magical Red Baron and it was a huge blow to the Germans to loose what appeared to be an immortal ace.

This is due to 2 things - the angle of the shot and the fact that only one bullet hit was found (although his plane was ripped apart by scavengers pretty quickly) and the other is the severity of the wound and how long he kept flying after Brown shot at him.

I personally think it was probably a very lucky rifle shot - ground machine gun fire tends to stich holes into a moving target and there is only a recording of one hit/wound on MvR.
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#53 VonFear

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 19:31

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it.

I did try my best, but it's either a nose over or a complete wreck - In reality it was a heavy landing in which the wheels collapsed - Try replicating that - The wheels and frame in game seem to be made of solid titanium! :roll: I'd like to see that improved upon for the future of the damage model (along with the front end losing some of it's invincibility in a diving crash) (being super picky, I know! :lol: )

I don't think I have ever seen the landing gear up off in a hard landing, it flips on its back and you usually die. I don't think I have even see it shot off either.
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#54 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 20:53

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it.

I did try my best, but it's either a nose over or a complete wreck - In reality it was a heavy landing in which the wheels collapsed - Try replicating that - The wheels and frame in game seem to be made of solid titanium! :roll: I'd like to see that improved upon for the future of the damage model (along with the front end losing some of it's invincibility in a diving crash) (being super picky, I know! :lol: )

I don't think I have ever seen the landing gear up off in a hard landing, it flips on its back and you usually die. I don't think I have even see it shot off either.

In Rowan's Flying Corps they used to come off all the time in combat and anding. This is the other extreme- doesn't seem damage modelled.
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#55 rabu

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:29

The thing I don't get is why so many are so eager to say Brown didn't shoot him? I've seen all the latest videos that try to dispute Brown's shot and say that it had to be the ground shooters, etc., They set up elaborate computer simulations with trajectory lines, etc., etc., but I'm not convinced by any of it, because none of it is proof positive.. hell, it's not like they had black boxes to open and study back then. No one really knows for sure what angle RB's plane was at when it was hit, or exactly what the position of Brown was, it's all based on different accounts and conjecture and that's as good as witnesses at a car accident. IMHO You can make anything convincing if you stage it toward what you want to prove, especially when there is so little concrete evidence.

The point is.. wouldn't you rather have the Red Baron killed by an ace pilot, instead of some flunky on the ground who got lucky with a machine gun? I would, that would be a much more noble way to go. It seems like there is this effort today to historically wipe out any noble or famous historical figures or events and belittle them. Brown didn't brag about it and even refused to talk about it for years afterward, he simply recounted that he was just doing his job. To me he was a hero for taking down the magical Red Baron and it was a huge blow to the Germans to loose what appeared to be an immortal ace.

This is due to 2 things - the angle of the shot and the fact that only one bullet hit was found (although his plane was ripped apart by scavengers pretty quickly) and the other is the severity of the wound and how long he kept flying after Brown shot at him.

I personally think it was probably a very lucky rifle shot - ground machine gun fire tends to stich holes into a moving target and there is only a recording of one hit/wound on MvR.


Tom: I've seen all the latest theories, I'm aware of their arguments in favor of the ground shots, I just don't buy it because it is based on assumptions that are iffy at best. Like I said, we will never know for sure, but what would you rather have, Richthofen shot by a stray bullet, or by another ace?
The arguments are endless, I guess.
You could say that you don't like the idea of some other ace getting the best of him, you would rather it be just bad luck, but I 'll bet the Baron himself would rather it have been at the hands of another distinguished ace pilot, not some lucky pot shot.
And on the historical note, as I stated, isn't it more grand that he was shot down by Brown, trying to save his friend, another pilot who obviously respected him but was "just doing his job" and didn't gloat over it afterwords? A heroic figure, in my mind, and a fitting ending to the Baron.
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#56 Viper69

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:43

Very awesome!
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#57 Gisbod

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:54

I think his plane crash landed and was a bit more beat up than in this video but I love it.

I did try my best, but it's either a nose over or a complete wreck - In reality it was a heavy landing in which the wheels collapsed - Try replicating that - The wheels and frame in game seem to be made of solid titanium! :roll: I'd like to see that improved upon for the future of the damage model (along with the front end losing some of it's invincibility in a diving crash) (being super picky, I know! :lol: )

I don't think I have ever seen the landing gear up off in a hard landing, it flips on its back and you usually die. I don't think I have even see it shot off either.

In Rowan's Flying Corps they used to come off all the time in combat and landing. This is the other extreme- doesn't seem damage modelled.


I tried breaking the gear off by flying low over hangars and hitting the wheels (on many occasions!) - but the results were always the same - the aircraft collapses but the gear stays firm! :lol: I think it would be a nice touch (and realistic!) that the gear could separate in a heavy "arrival".. Altough I have seen individual wheels come off on occasion - just not the frame..
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#58 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:17

You could say that you don't like the idea of some other ace getting the best of him, you would rather it be just bad luck, but I 'll bet the Baron himself would rather it have been at the hands of another distinguished ace pilot, not some lucky pot shot.
And on the historical note, as I stated, isn't it more grand that he was shot down by Brown, trying to save his friend, another pilot who obviously respected him but was "just doing his job" and didn't gloat over it afterwords? A heroic figure, in my mind, and a fitting ending to the Baron.

I did say "I think".

He kept flying with a fatal chest wound long after brown shot at him - indeed kept flying away from safety so it's unlikely. Brown refused to comment on it for the rest of his life - maybe he wasn't 100% on it?

May was convinced Brown got him but was flying the other way and admitted he was struggling to control his Camel.

Any machine gun fire hitting the plane whether from the ground or the air is unlikely to have hit with just one round - it was very lucky whoever did it but it is very convenient from a propaganda point of view to have the best German ace defeated in the Air by another pilot rather than dumb luck isn't it?

As I said in all my other posts "we will never know" but a plane flying at 100mph or less getting hit by machine gun fire should take more than 1 hit (particularly since it was in the mid-section) you'd expect a stitching of fire through the aircraft (3 or 4 hits). Hence the lucky rifle shot theory.

It's a much better story that he was bested by a pilot coming to save his friend but I think it's increasingly unlikely - particularly since Brown refused to claim one way or the other for it.
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#59 rabu

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 15:37

Yep, lots of maybes.. but no proof, no concrete evidence. It comes down to what you want to believe. All though history you can find examples of internal death wounds where the person continued to fight beyond what a doctor would say is possible. The plane was ransacked, investigations were far from advanced back then, even if only one bullet hit RH, short bursts could have resulted in that. One could go on an on with this and it still wouldn't prove anything, again, it comes down to what you want to believe.

The key statement you made, showing how you feel about it was, "it is very convenient from a propaganda point of view to have the best German ace defeated in the Air by another pilot rather than dumb luck isn't it?" This tells me that you don't like the idea that RH was bested by another Ace. You could just as easily say that the currant "propaganda" is that it was not glorious at all, he just had bad luck, killed by a pot shot from some grunt in the trenches, that he must not have been in his right mind because of an earlier head wound and that's let Brown get on his tail.. etc. etc.

I would rather look at it from a more historically romantic view.. Germany's greatest ace was brought down finally by Canada's greatest ace.. a fitting ending. A hero takes down the villein.. we need more heroes in history, and especially now.
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#60 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 15:41

I don't think the German's in WWI were really villains. Also he wasn't in range of May so didn't continue to fight just continued to pursue. If he was injured by Brown who shot him near the lines it would have made a lot of sense to turn back East and land on his own side of the lines.

And as a British person I'd love the idea of Richtofen being beaten in the air -but the evidence doesn't appear to support it and it seems to be a PR/Morale thing from the time.

Your statement here demonstrates how well it works as PR to have Brown as the person who brought him down (Romantic not necessarily Realistic):


"I would rather look at it from a more historically romantic view.. Germany's greatest ace was brought down finally by Canada's greatest ace.. a fitting ending. A hero takes down the villein.. we need more heroes in history, and especially now."

Anyway I don't want this debate to take anything away from this excellent video - keep them coming!!
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#61 winger2

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 16:12

Amazing work. Had big fun watching it.
Nonetheless there are diffrent theories of who shot down Richthofen. I in person think it was a groundgunner and not Brown.

Kepp up the good work. Looking forward to see more of your movies!

Winger
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#62 Viper69

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 16:22

I also believe it was the ground machinegunner. Especially after watching some of those biplanes and DR1s fly low. You could hit them with a rifle let alone a fast rate of fire machinegun.
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#63 Gisbod

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 17:57

Amazing work. Had big fun watching..

Winger

Thanks! Try watching in HD and full screen.. ;)
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#64 Viper69

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 19:06

I did, was astounding!
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#65 rabu

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 02:07

I don't think the German's in WWI were really villains. Also he wasn't in range of May so didn't continue to fight just continued to pursue. If he was injured by Brown who shot him near the lines it would have made a lot of sense to turn back East and land on his own side of the lines.

And as a British person I'd love the idea of Richthofen being beaten in the air -but the evidence doesn't appear to support it and it seems to be a PR/Morale thing from the time.

Your statement here demonstrates how well it works as PR to have Brown as the person who brought him down (Romantic not necessarily Realistic):


"I would rather look at it from a more historically romantic view.. Germany's greatest ace was brought down finally by Canada's greatest ace.. a fitting ending. A hero takes down the villein.. we need more heroes in history, and especially now."

Anyway I don't want this debate to take anything away from this excellent video - keep them coming!!

If you were actually fighting in the war, they would have been villains (or plug in synonym).. they had much worse words to use then that as well. And to the Germans, their adversaries were villains as well, maybe they used different words, but the effect is the same.. God is always on your side and the other side are villains, right? Anyway, two different opinions, like I said, it just comes down to what you want to believe. I just don't like what I see happening with the fad I see in schools of History deconstruction in the name of "scientific" accuracy… again, that's just me.

Yes, back to the film.. I watched it again tonight and enjoyed it just as much or more then before. I'm really looking forward to his next endeavor.
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#66 catchov

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:01

I also believe it was the ground machinegunner. Especially after watching some of those biplanes and DR1s fly low. You could hit them with a rifle let alone a fast rate of fire machinegun.

Yes it was suicide to fly below 2000 feet over enemy territory meandering along at barely 100mph with literally hundreds of pissed off and trigger-happy troops taking potshots with rifles and/or machine guns at you. You'd be an idiot to do it intentionally.

Richtofen was probably a sick and worn out man by the time of his death. The headwound he got from a FEE gunner earlier was pretty bad, surely must have reduced his mental capacity and would have contributed to his malaise. Whatever the reason he was unbelievably stupid in doing what he did to cause his own death. Perhaps he thought he was immortal or maybe he'd had enough and wanted it over ?

Personally I think the chances of groundfire getting him was far greater than a single Camel.
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#67 MicahSJ

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:54

That's a very nice video Gisbod. Concerning the bad criticism, don't let it bother you. I think there's good and bad criticism, depending on who it's from and where, and the attitude of the person giving it. I very much enjoyed your video…the excellent footage, audio, and historical information. Thanks for all the hard work and for sharing it with us.
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#68 NewGuy_

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 21:31

WOW! S!
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#69 Gisbod

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 17:33

Out soon in a cinema near you! - New video - "The Death of Mannock" :P
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#70 Der_Sevtl

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 18:14

Great to hear that!
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#71 WF2

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 12:09

Now this movie should be part of the new RoF web page! …. would you not buy RoF after seeing this!

Bravo, bravo!… encore!
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#72 Gisbod

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 12:07

Glad you like it :P

I'm just in the process of uploading the Mannock film - hopefully should be up later ;)
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#73 Viper69

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 14:18

Not to draw ire from anyone but… Who is Mannock?
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#74 J2_squid

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 14:20

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mick_Mannock" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mick_Mannock
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#75 Viper69

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 14:23

"Once, he forced a German two-seater to crash. Most pilots would have been satisfied with that, but not Mick. He repeatedly machine-gunned the helpless crew. When his squadron mate questioned this behaviour, Mannock explained "The swines are better dead - no prisoners"

So this guy would have been kicked off a couple of the servers we play on. Chivalry must have died early in the war I would guess.
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#76 J2_squid

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 14:29

Yes It did, he was ruthless, but remember this was a war and he had seen the deaths of many of his friends.

Knights of the Sky is really a myth created by the media and goverments. With the horror of the trenches it wasnt possible to report positive war stories. With the advent of the Aces a bit of spin was used to make them like modern day knights or celebrities to help with moral back home.

The reality was it was a brutal air war with no quarter given.
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#77 Viper69

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 16:32

I agree, I immagine the same people who romanticize the chivalry in air combat also believe Knights in the middle ages were always helping the poor, honest and never once hit somone in the back. Truth is always a rough pill to swollow for the people who hold these folks in high reguard.
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#78 Brutal_Baron

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 17:39

Nice work on that video Gisbod. It is very good PR for ROF. I have made several short movie clips using the Sony Vegas Movie Studios software. It is a good program.

An earlier post mentioned Snowy Evans as the mostly likely person to kill The Baron. Expert reseachers agree with that viewpoint.

Based on books I read decades ago and I have known for a very long time that Canadian aviator Brown never downed Richtofen. Recently I watched another but new historical documentary on the "Military channel" about Richtofen's final flight. This involved ballistics experts, autopsy reports, eyewitness reports, pilots, expert marksmen, historical experts, military computer sims programmers combined with "laser" ground machine guns.
They used a real Sopwith camel with a laser-mounted equipment to determine the spread of any fire toward Richtofen's plane and with computer simulation combined with eyewitness reports proved Brown could not have hit the Triplane. They re-flew the Baron's last flight path. Using historical located ground machine gun "laser" shots fired at a target plane proved that is was very possible for a machine gun to have hit the Baron's aircraft.
The investigators read newly discovered evidence by one of the machine gunners, Sgt Popkin that actually fired upon Richtofen. Popkin did fire at the Baron. Popkin’s recently discovered letter complete with a map sketch by Popkin himself stated he fired at the Baron from the front. Richtofen's fatal wound was a single .303 caliber shot from the right side that traveled upward. The detailed investigation determined that machine gun ground fire killed Richtofen. The individual that actually hit Richtofen was most likely an Aussie machine gunner named Snowy Evan. He was the only one that was in position to have fired the fatal shot.

The Red Baron, nobelman and great war eagle, was downed by a common soldier. It was not the Hollywood ending of aviator downing aviator that has been wrongly feed to the public for decades. I believe The Baron himself, would have wanted to meet his fate in a more spectacular way as in the way Voss was killed in a "blaze of glory." As in life the ending doesn't usually conclude the way we wished. We are more likey go out with a whimper,not a bang.
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#79 Viper69

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 18:28

I saw that show as well brutal. The guys also has no known pictures as well. If I remember right nobody knows what Snowy even looks like.

I also agree with you, I am sure he would have rather gone out fighting against extreme odds as Voss did. I also believe had Voss not been caught alone and was able to get away he would have surpassed Richthofen in kills and perhaps even fame. Along the same line on Voss, there was no way in hell he could have escaped those SE5s short of killing or disabling them. Either way many lives were saved by these two warriros being killed.
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#80 SYN_DerHesse70

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 13:26

For all who didn't see it:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=USDZRARjkIU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

http://www.youtube.c...&feature=relmfu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"> … ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.c...&feature=relmfu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"> … ure=relmfu

Why do we have no Vaux-sur-Somme on the front map?
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