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Is the Logitech 940 the best option right now?


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#41 TX-Thunderbolt

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 03:57

I wonder how long Thunderbolt has had his Fighterstick?


I'm on year 7 since I had it converted to Lefty HOTAS. Before that I had a regular FlightStick Pro (since it's the BEST ambi stick ever made…before or since) that I used for 3 years and it still sits in my closet as a backup or pass on.

I had two MSFFB2 sticks. One was the original gameport right when they came out, and the second was a newer USB model that I ultimately sent to Czech Republic to a buddy over there.
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#42 catchov

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 04:07

And IMO nothing is even in the same league for durability, reliability, or precision as CH, which has already been well proven for the last 15 years. Until someone else can make a HOTAS that has that kind of track record, nothing will even compare IMO

Any curent CH sticks have FFB ?

I find the logitech/saitek sticks like a cheap gimmick, personally, and I think many people buy them for the flashy looks.

No. Just for the FFB and reasonable price. And functionality over looks any day. Although the Cyborg Evo's pretty blue lights match my Antec cases's pretty blue lights perfectly :lol:
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#43 PP_Nobody96

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:33

Aside from the "reversal bug" which get fixed hopefully sooner than later, the g940 is a nice stick. I had a x52pro previous to it and must say that the workmanship is better, but there are a few other issues:

1) The trigger is a two stage one but pressure points are stupidly placed
2) The pinky switch is also not as good as the on on the x52. Hard to reach, feel and press
3) The ministick is pointless. It doesn't recenter properly and can hardly be used with the needed sensitivity because it so far away from you thumb.

This all summed up, i think that the g940 still is the best stick you can buy, because its the most precise and well crafted ffb stick on the marked and you really should use a ffb stick for RoF.

so long
Mathias
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#44 ATAG_Bliss

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 16:01

And IMO nothing is even in the same league for durability, reliability, or precision as CH, which has already been well proven for the last 15 years. Until someone else can make a HOTAS that has that kind of track record, nothing will even compare IMO

Any curent CH sticks have FFB ?

I find the logitech/saitek sticks like a cheap gimmick, personally, and I think many people buy them for the flashy looks.

No. Just for the FFB and reasonable price. And functionality over looks any day. Although the Cyborg Evo's pretty blue lights match my Antec cases's pretty blue lights perfectly :lol:

:) I guess the FFB has to do with personal preference, but I've found that anything that remotely hinders where I want the plane to go, ie - my stick moving around on me/added resistance, takes any sort precision I had away.

I did the iracing thing for a while and bought a logitech FFB wheel. Iracing is a very tough racing sim. Many professional race car drivers practice with iracing to give you an idea. In this sim, I 1st drove with FFB on. While the effect was very nice, it took away from how good I was in the corners. Once I disabled FFB, I was gaining seconds in lap times.

Perhaps all the things that you feel with FFB in a plane - like coming to a stall/on the edge of breaking apart, I've dealt with because I have a really good sound card and headphones. Therefore, I hear it instead of wanting my plane control device to feel it and take away from my precision. That's been my experience anyways..
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#45 Proccy

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:37

FFB joysticks is a personal thing I find them to be nothing like the real thing. Most of the planes i flew you had very little feel in the controls My favourite plane a west aussie built Eagle x15o plane that had a very short joystick and when flying the inputs was so small you only needed to move the stick a half inch most of the time also no feeling or vibration when in the air.
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#46 catchov

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 03:19

I guess the FFB has to do with personal preference

Yep. So Bliss, CH do not have FFB sticks then ?
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#47 Trenchgun97

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 06:09

FFB joysticks is a personal thing I find them to be nothing like the real thing. Most of the planes i flew you had very little feel in the controls My favourite plane a west aussie built Eagle x15o plane that had a very short joystick and when flying the inputs was so small you only needed to move the stick a half inch most of the time also no feeling or vibration when in the air.

In a plane that isn't fly by wire, you can feel the controls getter stiffer as speed and Gs increase. That's certainly one thing that force feedback is great about, and helps me fly planes smoother with less wasted energy.

It helps give you a sense of the G forces you are undergoing, as you feel them in the stick because you can't feel them on your body.

I imagine in a WW1 era plane you would certainly feel it shake and vibrate in manuevers.
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#48 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 06:20

In a plane that isn't fly by wire, you can feel the controls getter stiffer as speed and Gs increase. That's certainly one thing that force feedback is great about, and helps me fly planes smoother with less wasted energy.

It helps give you a sense of the G forces you are undergoing, as you feel them in the stick because you can't feel them on your body.

I imagine in a WW1 era plane you would certainly feel it shake and vibrate in manuevers.

This is exactly what I wanted to say.
It comes much more evident in WWII planes (higher speeds/Gs).
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#49 Proccy

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 09:09

Are you guys talking from real flying expreiance or from what you hear. i flew a tigermoth and the controls are very light even when we were doing aerobatics a small increase in the pressure but you do not get the I will fight you feeling you get from FF joysticks there is no way you can get the g force feelin from a joystick :? I think a large woofer under the chair is the way to go :D
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#50 Trenchgun97

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 09:32

Maybe you didn't reach the speeds and Gs necessary to really feel the effects? Maybe it's more prevalent in WW2 era planes that are faster and heavier.

One thing FFB does let you do is fly the plane by feel, to not only get a sense of how the aircraft is responding to your inputs, but also to have a sense of the directional G forces that normally your entire body would feel.
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#51 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 09:43

Are you guys talking from real flying expreiance or from what you hear. i flew a tigermoth and the controls are very light even when we were doing aerobatics a small increase in the pressure but you do not get the I will fight you feeling you get from FF joysticks there is no way you can get the g force feelin from a joystick :? I think a large woofer under the chair is the way to go :D

No personal experience, but I have read in WWII pilots' memories that they sometimes had to pull hard on the stick, see:

On March 29 Korky [Koraleski] got credit for destroying a Focke-Wulf 190 without firing a shot. His encounter report is quoted in part:

"There were Me-109s and FW-190s all over the place. We were milling round like mad. I squirted at three or four, then chased one off my wingman's tail. I picked out another one and stayed with him, waiting to get in a good shot. He started to do snap-rolls, and the next thing I knew we were both spinning down through the clouds. We broke out at about 2000 feet, with me about 300 yards behind him, still spinning. Boy, I thought, it's too late. I stopped my ship from spinning and started my pullout.

The ground was staring me right in the face. .
**************************************************************************
I had grabbed the stick with both hands and hauled back as hard as I could,
**************************************************************************
and the pressure caused me to black out. I remember thinking, "Well, at least you'll be unconscious when you hit."
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#52 Proccy

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 10:31

High speed stalls in ww 2 planes is another matter any plane that is flown above safe speeds will cause controls to fail. but when a plane is flown in its limits it should be safely and fairly easly controled. damaged and out of control planes are another issue and took a lot of effort to get out of hench the tales of having to use both feet to push stick forward etc stories. force feed back is nice but unreal
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#53 arjisme

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 15:43

Are you guys talking from real flying expreiance or from what you hear. i flew a tigermoth and the controls are very light even when we were doing aerobatics a small increase in the pressure but you do not get the I will fight you feeling you get from FF joysticks there is no way you can get the g force feelin from a joystick :? I think a large woofer under the chair is the way to go :D
I'm sure FFB sticks do not recreate a true-to-life experience regarding forces. However, a non-FFB stick with self-centering spring is the only other option. I guess you could remove the spring and make it a completely floppy stick, but that doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

Surely there are some forces you can feel in a stick in a real aircraft? Particularly a real WWI or WWII aircraft flying at the edge of their envelopes?
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#54 HotTom

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 17:08

force feed back is nice but unreal

Sherk,

I think you miss the point of having a FFB stick.

No one (well, at least I don't) expects it to "duplicate a real flying experience" in terms of G forces (yes, I used to fly but that was 40 years ago; there are just so many expensive hobbies a middle class peasant like myself can afford and I have two others – not including flightsims – that keep me perpetually broke but happy :lol: ).

The most important reason for using a FFB stick (again, to me) in a flight sim is warning of an incipient stall. That's the only way I have of knowing I am approaching the edge (except in the Camel, which gives no warning at all). I frankly don't know how anyone flies a combat sim without FFB.

In RoF, it also completely eliminates the need for using response curves, even in the RoF SE5a, which is absurdly tail heavy and lacks the trim control it had in real life.

To me, those two factors put FFB way above the "nice to have" category.

But, hey, if you're happy without it, that's why there are options.

S!

HT
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#55 ATAG_Bliss

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 17:50

I have a XFI Titanium and AD900s cans. You can easily tell when you're pulling too hard or coming close to a stall just by listening to your aircraft. You can feel it in the sounds it makes. Trust me in saying, the sound difference between a good set of headphones coupled with an audio driving amplifier/card and onboard sound is night and day. (Oddly enough, most people don't upgrade their sound when getting a new pc)

But any device that gets stronger, weaker, or just plain wobbles about makes you lose precision in flight. Just imagine if you're playing a 1st person shooter video game and all the sudden your mouse gets harder to move around to aim at someone or it gets easier. You would be aiming all over the place just trying to get your sights on someone.

I honestly don't see how anyone can use FFB or why you would want to. I want precision and anything that hinders exactly where I want the plane to go is a huge loss in that department. Perhaps everyone is used to sticks where the centering springs are super hard so FFB is just an additional pull or maybe less pull of what's already there. I could see using FFB to make those heavy springs become more limp. CH, on the other hand, has virtually no resistance and makes for light, precise, movements. But the key to plane control is precision. I will never use a devise that takes precision away or constantly changes the feel of the device I'm trying to be precise with.
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#56 Viper69

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 18:26

I use CH pedal/Fighter stick and a x45 throttle. I am so pleased with my CH stuff, they are sold and short of being made from metal the thick plastic they use feels like steel in its firmness. The biggest gripe people have with the CH stick is how soft the feel is. I am a big guy with alot of bachelor years so I have a firm grip :O. At first I thought wow this is a feather touch. After a few days I now fly with 3 fingers and precise flying without any problems. I have never had to recalibrate them and even though they say not to use them the CH stick has wheels on the base you can use to trim out planes. I trim out the SE5/DR1 within 10 seconds of reaching cruise speed, I dont mess with joystick curves. If I have to give my x45 back to my brother I may have to buy a CH throttle, unfortunatly it has no mini dials on it.
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#57 Proccy

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 23:25

Hi Viper i have a saitek x52 and a thrustmaster ffback stick as well as a CH yoke. The CH is the best Ive had it for about 8 years and it as good as new i do most of my flying with it including Rof. The thrustmaster Forcefeed back stick is the worse of the lot very inaccurate once the novelty wears off. Ive just ordered the new saitek x65 and cant wait. i have read reviews where they bag it and read how they love it. I think its going to take awhile to get used to it but i think its the future of new joysticks cant wait to use it. Would love to hear from some one who owns one.
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#58 Viper69

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:14

Whats supposed to be better with the x65?
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#59 Proccy

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:57

Its force sensing the actual joystick it self does not move it senses how hard you press and reponds in kind just like in real jetfightres Should not ever lose its accuracy and its very smooth from what i hear. I dont just fly RoF main game is FSX
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#60 Viper69

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:33

Gotcha
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#61 catchov

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 04:17

The most important reason for using a FFB stick (again, to me) in a flight sim is warning of an incipient stall. That's the only way I have of knowing I am approaching the edge (except in the Camel, which gives no warning at all). I frankly don't know how anyone flies a combat sim without FFB.

In RoF, it also completely eliminates the need for using response curves, even in the RoF SE5a, which is absurdly tail heavy and lacks the trim control it had in real life.

To me, those two factors put FFB way above the "nice to have" category.

Spot on. Particularly response curves. Flying RoF with a non-ffb on stock curves in the camel and se5a was just plain weird. With FFB, same kites, stock curves, no problem.

I'd add that I never had this problem with a non-FFB in other flight sims I've enjoyed so it seems RoF is particularly finicky in this area. But RoF, being the sim that it is, is worth pursuing, and worth pursuing hard, so it was a personal decision to ditch the non-FFB and try the FFB to counter my disappointment. It worked. :)
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#62 WillyVonWonka

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 07:20

Well, I just got my G940 earlier today, and I've got to say(beyond the initial set-up headache)why didn't I get an FFB before. This set-up really helped and is more immersive and thus more enjoyable.

My favorite plane is the Camel and found myself able to push her to the edge more and with better precision to hit the cockpit and\or engine. So far the G940 is much better than the non-FFB set-up I had previously…hopefully it'll take the gentle but relentless use of hours on RoF. :D
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#63 Trenchgun97

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 04:46

So far I'm not not entirely pleased with the 940
I got the latest software and upgraded the firmware.

The main problem is that the force mortors seem to apply themselves unevenly and in a jerky fashion. It's not well centered. It's not very smooth, and you can feel the grinding of the gears.

There's simply no contest, the MSFFB2 blows it away.

At this point I'm hoping that these problems can be fixed by tweaking the setup, otherwise I am not sure this was worth it.
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#64 Masaq

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 06:59

So far I'm not not entirely pleased with the 940
I got the latest software and upgraded the firmware.

The main problem is that the force mortors seem to apply themselves unevenly and in a jerky fashion. It's not well centered. It's not very smooth, and you can feel the grinding of the gears.

There's simply no contest, the MSFFB2 blows it away.

At this point I'm hoping that these problems can be fixed by tweaking the setup, otherwise I am not sure this was worth it.


I would suggest entering the controller setup screen and disabling the centre-return spring force, to start with. It's not needed, and stops a lot of pointless grinding.

You should then only get fluttering when you're taking off or stalling, etc. Regular.flight should be silky smooth.
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#65 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 07:13

Masaq"]

I would suggest entering the controller setup screen and disabling the centre-return spring force, to start with. It's not needed, and stops a lot of pointless grinding.

You should then only get fluttering when you're taking off or stalling, etc. Regular.flight should be silky smooth.

I second that.
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#66 Trenchgun97

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 07:45

I also play another flight sim, WW2Ol, which doesn't have force feedback, so I'm trying to figure out how I can enable centering forces of the joystick to always be on, like it is with the MSFFB2. Otherwise my ability to get fine tuned control is limited by the large center play.
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#67 Viper69

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 13:38

I used to play WW2OL all the time, now Battleground Europe. Flew with JG51M on the Axis side.
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#68 Trenchgun97

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Posted 30 July 2010 - 13:59

I googled and was directed to some threads here where people recommended turning spring and damper effect all the way down, and reducing centering spring strength, in addition to raising the overall force strength a tad.

This has given me much better results with smoother movement and accuracy.

The downside is that although it's improved in control, I don't really get any immersive benefit out of the force feedback anymore. I can barely feel the stall of the plane, but at least I can still feel it. It has helped me ride the stalls better.

My ability to make quick adjustments in aim and direction is still not what it was on the MSFBB2, but that could just be because I had far more experience using the MSFFB2.

The MSFFB2 worked perfectly without any setup, giving me both good accuracy, smoother movement, and strong FFB.
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#69 Proccy

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:49

Hi all just unpack my new x65 joystick had a quick fly in fsx have not set it up yet but man o man what a joystick amazing so far
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#70 Viper69

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:45

I may buy that saitek just for the throttle and switch bank. The x65f looks awesome, the force sensing I am iffy about but if fighter pilots can get used to it. I wont hang up my CH fighterstick just yet.
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#71 catchov

catchov
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 01:24

Hi all just unpack my new x65 joystick had a quick fly in fsx have not set it up yet but man o man what a joystick amazing so far

So how is it in RoF Sherk ?
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#72 Proccy

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:35

Hi all just set up new x65 in Rof and only issue was getting throttle to go to full power but fix that by closing the throttle when setting up and it works. :D
Im flying on the hardest and 2nd hardest settings and the stick is brilliant plane is solid best I ever had in ROF. I have no problems with the stick not moving does not seem to be a issue for me.You have to bolt the stick and throttle down other wise i think you will have issues.
Still a lot of learning to do befor I can say I understand all of the features, it can be programmed up to 608 button and nobs setting so wil take a life time for me to work it out LoL :lol: I recommend you think about it when next stick purchase comes up. I know its a bit pricey but man its classy happy happy chappy :D :D :lol: :lol: :P ;) 8-) :D
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#73 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:48

congrats, Sherk!
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#74 catchov

catchov
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:59

happy happy chappy :D :D :lol: :lol: :P ;) 8-) :D

Geez I've never seen Sherk so happy :lol: But the gunja is good up that way. Goodonya mate ! A good stick makes a hell of a difference eh.
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#75 Proccy

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:56

We lick cane toads up here for our kicks :lol: :lol:
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#76 Trenchgun97

Trenchgun97
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 07:18

Hi all just set up new x65 in Rof and only issue was getting throttle to go to full power but fix that by closing the throttle when setting up and it works. :D
Im flying on the hardest and 2nd hardest settings and the stick is brilliant plane is solid best I ever had in ROF. I have no problems with the stick not moving does not seem to be a issue for me.You have to bolt the stick and throttle down other wise i think you will have issues.
Still a lot of learning to do befor I can say I understand all of the features, it can be programmed up to 608 button and nobs setting so wil take a life time for me to work it out LoL :lol: I recommend you think about it when next stick purchase comes up. I know its a bit pricey but man its classy happy happy chappy :D :D :lol: :lol: :P ;) 8-) :D

For accuracy and looks, the X65 appealed to me.
But I ended up going with the 940 for immersion, because of FFB and the fact that WW1/WW2 planes don't use that style of stick.
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#77 EAF19_MARSH

EAF19_MARSH
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:04

I'm having quite a few problems with my G940; control axis seem to suddenly reverse without my selecting them (especially throttle), buttons selected for one function also perform another randomly (blip moves view, charge guns fires a flare) and the game refuses to recognise the throttle base buttons.

Any suggestions?
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#78 ST_ami7b5

ST_ami7b5
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:37

I'm having quite a few problems with my G940; control axis seem to suddenly reverse without my selecting them (especially throttle), buttons selected for one function also perform another randomly (blip moves view, charge guns fires a flare) and the game refuses to recognise the throttle base buttons.

Any suggestions?

First of all I stopped using Logitech Gaming software to avoid double/cross definitions.
Check also your in-game settings in RoF for possible multiple assignments.
There are some default ones you might not be aware of when you mapped your own.
It is good to check all mappings in your RoF profile and delete possible cross-definitions…
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#79 EAF19_MARSH

EAF19_MARSH
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:13

Thanks Ami, how do I turn off the Logitech default settings?
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#80 ST_ami7b5

ST_ami7b5
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Posted 03 August 2010 - 16:37

Thanks Ami, how do I turn off the Logitech default settings?
One thing is the default setting you get when you use Logitech Gaming software and choose RoF as a game there.
I have stopped using it. Usually it automatically starts with Windows after G940 installation.
So go to options and uncheck starting it with windows.
Another thing is the mapping you obtain in RoF when you choose default "input" profile in "controls".
You should inspect all the mappings, change them to your taste and then save them under another profile - I use "G940" as the name of my G940 profile.
You can have any number of profiles in RoF and switch between them in "control" section - using the pull-down selector.

See also: Logitech GS & G940 Firmware Update

Zerotown offers some G940 profiles there. You can use it as a starter and tweak it to your taste…
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