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windows 7 and MS Sidewinder FF2


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#81 BroadSide

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:42

thanks for the update Ziggy. Looking forward to hearing if your MSFF2 stick has the same issues.
I think it's the bios update personally (so I'll go out on a limb and be positive: no more stutters for you! with the ff2 stick that is)
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#82 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 09:04

I went to the Gigabyte site and updated my GA-EX58-UD5 mobo BIOS to the latest F12 version. (I was previously running version F7 when I built the rig last year)

I've got that excellent mobo Ziggy (absolutely love it) and for me I have trouble with the PCIe slots on the later BIOS's (285 isn't recognised in all the PCI x16 slots) so I'm still on F7 probably (probably fixed by now but you know the thing about if it isn't broken…)

These are deep, muddy and sometimes perilous to navigate waters :)

Ming
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#83 W1ndy

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 06:08

These are deep, muddy and sometimes perilous to navigate waters :)

Ming

We might be getting there. My mobo is old and weak. I cant buy the X58-UD5 because I'm with AMD, but there may be a comparable AMD board, or I might need to go to intel.

Either way I'm keen to hear Ziggy's results too.
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#84 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:10

Ziggy Thank You kindly for the help and info as a matter I have not updated the bios because I just put the computer together about 4 months ago but I guess the bios could be over a year old.
I will Wait a few days to see if you can get back and post your results if you don't get a chance to get back thanks and I will update anyways to see what happens

PS. I was camping so I didn't get a chance to reply till now
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#85 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:03

I have not updated the bios

Those are the darkling waters I was talking about earlier Glow, go steady with updating your motherboard's BIOS please if you have not done that before (I can't know)

Try to backup your BIOS before updating it. If you can't find out how to do that, go to your mobo's user forums and ask for advice

Sorry if I'm getting over-protective mate and you're ok with it, but I don't like to think of you looking at a brick… so the standard cautionary note, it's a duty :)

Ming
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#86 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:49

I have not updated the bios

Those are the darkling waters I was talking about earlier Glow, go steady with updating your motherboard's BIOS please if you have not done that before (I can't know)

Try to backup your BIOS before updating it. If you can't find out how to do that, go to your mobo's user forums and ask for advice
Ming

Your concern is appreciated Ming thanks. I will make certain that I know exactly what I am doing before I make an attempt to update the bios, if Im not 100 percent confident that i can do it Ill leave it alone ;)
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#87 Morgenrot

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 01:30

Your concern is appreciated Ming thanks. I will make certain that I know exactly what I am doing before I make an attempt to update the bios, if Im not 100 percent confident that i can do it Ill leave it alone ;)

Guten Morgen Herr Doktor! I hope you don't mind waiting a bit longer… thing is, I finally had time to test it tonight, so I got back on the comp, unplugged the G940, rebooted, retrieved my MSFFB2 from storage in the the garage, got back, plugged it in, configured it, got TrackIR running, put on my WWI black leather flying helmet from Germany and black leather Halcyon goggles from England, selected a nice music track to get in the mood (Umbra Et Imago - Lieber Gott), sat back and clicked on RoF saying "kontakt" to the screen…

and then…

"NEIN!"

"AIIEEEEE!!!!"

I'm sitting there ready to rock (looking like a sad reject from a steampunk party) but all I get on the screen is this:

Image

and this:

Image

so… is the Master Server down for everyone, or is it just me?

I even turned my software firewall off (Kaspersky) in case it was acting up. Same story. All ports open and unblocked.

I see that this website is acting unusually sluggish at the moment too (other sites are fine)… too many users or…?

Oh well, no time left this morning to test it now, I'll have another go later. DON'T update the BIOS yet.

I would've said to "be careful" so to speak when updating the BIOS of course but I'm sure you already know this ;)

BTW, this is still the RoF DEMO I'm using (still waiting to buy ICE in the UK haha), so this is why I can't test it in "offline mode" right now. Hm, fingers crossed, my demo time won't run out by tomorrow, ha! Either way as soon as the Server is working again I'll let you know about that joystick.
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#88 catchov

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:19

…. put on my …. black leather Halcyon goggles from England

Sexy 8-)

Yep server was down.
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#89 Morgenrot

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:38

Dr Glow, Broadside, W1ndy and anyone else interested… I got RoF running and completed the test. That eye-hurting, TrackIR sticky-pan-stutter effect is back, exactly the same as before! So, it's the M$ stick. No need to update the BIOS for you (it's better you don't).

For the record, the test was done on…

RoF demo
i7 @ 4.0GHz
6GB DDR3
GTX 285
Razer Megalodon 7.1 audio
1.25KW PSU
TrackIR 4 w/ TrackClip Pro + v5 software
Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2
Windows XP 32 bit (I thought it best to test RoF on XP dual boot rather than Win7x64 for this).

Well, all I can really say to anyone if you have the same problem… try a different joystick! Like I said, I changed my MSFFB2 over for a G940 and it runs perfectly, smooth as a shaved Bigglesworth wearing a Biggles silk scarf. Because some famous WWI ace pilots like Ming the Merciless have no TrackIR probs with the M$ joystick, I think it's unlikely we're going to see a patch to fix this, I mean if it isn't a problem for everybody…

If it helps, I found some good joystick reviews on Youtube. After looking at some, the main recommendation I would say is to NOT get the Saitek Cyborg X! Apparently lots of people are saying it's very badly designed with an awful deadzone and prone to breaking. Aside from the G940, the Thrustmaster T.1600 looks excellent though. Seems similar in concept to the MSFFB2 too. Or maybe look at that new A-10 Warthog stick? I don't know if that's FFB though. Quite important to check that. Oh well, good luck!

Sexy 8-)

Haha, better if Francesca Gonshaw was wearing them. Don't forget the flying helmet and the wet celery… oooohhh! René!!! :D
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#90 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:47

Merciful :)

Check my sig Zigs for my hardware, quite similar to yours

Razer Megalodon 7.1 audio

Hmm :)

Ming
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#91 Morgenrot

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 10:46

Merciful! Oops, sorry sir! :) S!

One last thing…

I didn't think this was relevant before…

I forgot to mention my USB keyboard and mouse in the specs.

You see, I vaguely remember reading something last year about one or two PC games having a "USB stutter bug". Now, what was that fps console-port that Mickey Rourke did the voice acting on.. 'Rogue Warrior' or something? Well I found out for myself that it had a game-breaking stuttering problem with USB keyboards. Anyway, to play the game without any stutter, I had to unplug my keyboard and finished the game with a gamepad. Bizarre I know! Apparently (from what others were saying about the game) if your keyboard wasn't USB you could play the game perfectly like any other PC fps with the mouse + k/b! Well I say perfectly… the game itself was only good for a few laughs at Rourke's lines… but I digress.

So Ming, is your mouse and k/b USB or..?

I wonder, could this be the breakthrough we're looking for?
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#92 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 15:18

the game itself was only good for a few laughs at Rourke's lines… but I digress.

:)

I just tried the original Mafia with Mafia2 in mind. Eek. You can't go back :)

Both stick and keyboard here are USB Ziggy

I've had lots of trouble with USB kit on the motherboard before this one, which is why I got this one

Sometimes swapping around kit (swap the plugs around in the USB sockets) can do something, to allow the operating system to re-recognise the hardware on rebooting. And one can even Uninstall the USB drivers' Host Controllers (look for the 'Enhanced' word) to allow re-recognition by the OS on rebooting: before rebooting is a good time to swap the USB plugs around with the machine powered down, let the dog see the rabbit. I do not recommend that procedure though to anyone who's not happy tinkering with the innards of the machine and dealing calmly :) with the possible repercussions

Also there's those USB options in BIOS settings

On those BIOS settings out of interest, I disabled only USB1 on the motherboard (I was having external USB drive trouble, drive not recognised) and when I rebooted the computer it couldn't recognise the keyboard and mouse lol. Odd that because USB2 was not disabled. Anyway I'm lucky that this motherboard has a 'Reset BIOS' button on the rear panel or I'd have had to pull out the CMOS backup battery. Mrs Ming thought it was very amusing of course and I haven't lived it down yet - but that was only last week so with time she might forget the sight of me looking down at a brick in a blind panic :)

Ming

Disclaimer: not recommended without strong drink beforehand
Image

All goes wrong I was never here :)
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#93 BroadSide

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 17:13

Thanks for the testing Ziggy!
I'm hoping you still have it set up. Can you boot into win7 64bit and try the same configuration with the ff2 there? That will eliminate the winxp/win7 idea that some have.

I didnt have a problem with xp 32 bit, or win7 64 bit….and still dont.

yes…hrm…the sound card. That was my recent guess, and was looking for Creative SB cards in the specs, but didnt see them. I have a Creative SB with no probs, but they are notorious for causing issues.

I too, wondered about USB 1 and 2.
I have usb kb/mouse setup.

It would be worth checking to just use the ps2 port for mouse and keyboard (usually they send you a little green adapter with your mouse and kb.

We at least are pushing this issue into the corner.

Ziggy, you have done well! we are almost there…I can feel a solution looming.
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#94 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 23:34

usually they send you a little green adapter

Good point ReadyMan thanks! I'd forgotten about that. I could have saved myself some trouble :)

Ming
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#95 BroadSide

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 02:10

Found an interesting post,
copied a portion from this thread:
possible solution


I've got excellent results: I took the time to look at all posts here about stuttering, and I quickly realized that there was one other thing that had changed between now and when I last played: last year I was using my onboard sound card, while currently I'm using the creative fatal1ty usb headsets. Well, they're the source of the problem, or at least most of it. When I shift back to onboard sound, most of the stutters are gone, except when at the beginning of a fight 5 vs 5, but in this case I'm not too surprised to get some stutters. Apart from that, I've got everything cranked up again, HDR, bloom, raindrop effects, anti aliasing and most of the things on high, and gosh, it looks great! Thanks all for the help and suggestions. There are still some graphic glitches that seem to be due to the nvidia drivers, but I can live with it. Also, it looks like a core 2 duo cpu can cope decently well with RoF under win 7 64 bits, granted that the rest of the rig is strong I suppose.

If the added USB headset caused problems (whether it's the fact that it's a sound related issue, or that it's a USB issue is the question), then I still think the FF2 is NOT the culprit..
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#96 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 03:13

Thanks so much Sawdust, looks like the Bios stays and I don't have to look at a brick :D .
As far as sound cards go I had a creative labs installed and puled it out and uninsulated the drivers, then I enabled the on Bord sound.The results are the same FFB stutters. Ho well back to the drawing Bord
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#97 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:05

creative labs

I had endless trouble with my Audigy2 (drivers) when Vista arrived and DirectSound was dropped Glow

My current Asus Xonar uses the tiny PCIe x1 slot and has thankfully proved to be trouble-free after installing it famous last words yes :)

I'm not saying that Creative's kit is poor, it's very good indeed and good value. Compatibility though with the later operating systems is very important and Creative's wrapper-to-DirectSound solution wasn't what I needed

Ming
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#98 BroadSide

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 17:09

Anyone tried the ps2 connector with their usb mouse/kb?
Isolating the USB connections may be very insightful.

FWIW, the reason I upgraded from winxp to win7 was periodic crashes, that I could not figure out. It turns out that it was one of the creative drivers that I had disabled to free up more memory.
Once I enabled it again, I had no more crashes.
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#99 catchov

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 00:44

Hmmm Creative seems to have a bad rep and perhaps unjustly. I was having issues last year (not with RoF) with unexplained lockups. It turned out the SB X-Fi drivers were from 2005 ! I removed them and updated to the latest 2009 drivers and no more problems.

Some of us tend to forget about updating sound drivers :oops: while most everyone else goes on a downloading spree on the latest and (and perhaps not the) greatest vid drivers.

In fact my sound drivers are later than my vid drivers (nvidia 182.50) :lol: and everything works fine.

I don't use win7 or have a SWFF2 but just thought it's important to keep your sound drivers up to date for those that might forget about it fwiw.
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#100 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 02:23

Creative seems to have a bad rep and perhaps unjustly

Definitely, the herd instinct is strong with them. The people who take small samples as statistically significant I mean

Ming
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#101 VonHelton

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 03:43

My sidewinder PP works beutifully with Win7…..Didn't even need a disk!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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#102 =IRFC=mols

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:16

I got mine to a point where it it's harder to notice. Still, it's a very noticeable difference from disabling FFB or using my old joystick.

I really think that most people just settle with this issue. Of course how noticeable it is on each system will vary.
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#103 catchov

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:53

Creative seems to have a bad rep and perhaps unjustly

Definitely, the herd instinct is strong with them. The people who take small samples as statistically significant I mean

Ming

I know exactly what you mean Ming ;)
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#104 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 02:38

I got mine to a point where it it's harder to notice. Still, it's a very noticeable difference from disabling FFB or using my old joystick.

I really think that most people just settle with this issue. Of course how noticeable it is on each system will vary.
Hi mols could you tell me how you have set things up to get it less noticeable,if you can please. thanks in advance,if you have the time and sorry to be a pest.
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#105 FlyingMonkey

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 03:09

I thought all my stutters were due to my creative usb headset, but it turns out I still get serious stuttering as soon as a decent number of planes are involved. So I decided to go for dual boot with XP 32 bits in addition to win 7 64 bits. I've done all the OS install yesterday, and will hopefully test RoF under XP this week. I'll finally know whether the current level of stutters I have is OS specific or not. I can live with a dual boot for a while if it cures my problems. I'd rather do that than upgrade my hardware now, I'd rather wait for next year battle between fusion and sandy bridge to do that!
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#106 =IRFC=mols

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 04:51

Hi mols could you tell me how you have set things up to get it less noticeable,if you can please. thanks in advance,if you have the time and sorry to be a pest.

Just by running RoF and TIR as admin. It helped a little but not as much as I would have liked. I don't know what else I can do. I really think the problem is in the FFB drivers that come with Win7.
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#107 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:59

Just by running RoF and TIR as admin. It helped a little but not as much as I would have liked. I don't know what else I can do. I really think the problem is in the FFB drivers that come with Win7.
Thanks Mols I tried that and its still not smooth enough for me on my machine, maybe its better on your computer.
The funny thing is it runs flawless on some machines and choppy on others :?: :?: .
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#108 FlyingMonkey

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 03:12

I've installed XP with a dual boot setup, and I have zero problems with RoF now. Clearly the stuttering I had under Windows 7 was indeed specific to running RoF in this OS. If you're spending a lot of time trying to tweak RoF, you might want to consider spending an evening re installing Xp to have a dual boot and enjoy RoF with no problems. I was very grumpy about the idea but now I'm not regretting, at least it's fixed (and I still find it useful to have 32 bits OS installed, I had some emulators that never made it 64bits compatibility, so now I can use them again too)
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#109 Morgenrot

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 15:53

Thanks for the testing Ziggy!
I'm hoping you still have it set up. Can you boot into win7 64bit and try the same configuration with the ff2 there? That will eliminate the winxp/win7 idea that some have.

I didnt have a problem with xp 32 bit, or win7 64 bit….and still dont.

yes…hrm…the sound card. That was my recent guess, and was looking for Creative SB cards in the specs, but didnt see them. I have a Creative SB with no probs, but they are notorious for causing issues.

I too, wondered about USB 1 and 2.
I have usb kb/mouse setup.

It would be worth checking to just use the ps2 port for mouse and keyboard (usually they send you a little green adapter with your mouse and kb.

We at least are pushing this issue into the corner.

Ziggy, you have done well! we are almost there…I can feel a solution looming.

S! Thanks. Well, squadron leader sir, I did as you asked. I tried the MSFFB2 stick with my RoF demo also in Win7x64 (dual boot, same rig). Exactly the same I'm afraid old bean. Same TrackIR stutter-pan for me as in XP 32-bit.

In case I forgot to mention it, for the record the Nvidia drivers I used were v. 191.07. That is, both the XP32 and Win7x64 versions. Same result. Of course, I don't think that this is particularly relevant in this case. I would try the newer versions but I think we all know that newer Nvidia drivers do have a habit of "breaking" older games eh…

Anyway, I tested the MSFFB2 stick + FFB + TrackIR with Creative Audigy 2 latest audio drivers. It's an old card yes but I like it for older sims and it works well for me. I then did the same test with my USB headset (Razer Megalodon) w/ latest Firmware, both in Win7x64 and XP. Same specific TrackIR stutter-pan in all cases. (To confirm for others who might've missed the old posts, this is just the panning-stutter. With my head not moving or TrackIR switched off, there isn't any stutter.)

BTW, I think Ming has a good point with the USB settings… I think I would have to disable the Creative Audigy 2 card completely or physically remove it for a complete test. Perhaps, simply plugging the USB headset in to change the "default" sound device in use at the time isn't enough. I think it may well be the "final solution" (!) we're looking for, but for now someone else can test this. ;)

I then changed the M$FFB2 joystick over for a G940 flight system (with Force Feedback still on, same as before). Finally, the TrackIR stutter was gone. The only thing different in all my final tests was the joystick. FFB was on at all times. I switched over sticks with the MSFFB2 joystick again just to make sure. TrackIR Stutter returned. I finally tried the G940 again. Smoothness all the way, no stuttering. So, it's a pity as I do like the MSFFB2 but I won't be using it with RoF anymore.

Like Dr Glow, I prefer FFB on, so it was on at all times during testing. The only time I ever disabled it was one time last month in the RoF options sliders just to confirm that turning FFB off fixed the TrackIR stuttering with the MSFFB2. It does fix it. But, I like FFB on so I decided to try a different joystick.

So Dr Glow, did you eventually find a different model joystick to try? That is, besides those Microsoft Sidewinders? Perhaps if you can't borrow one maybe it would be worth your while to buy a really cheapo joystick just to confirm it works? Then if your TrackIR stutter is finally gone (like it was for me) maybe then buy something a bit nicer to enjoy RoF fully with?

To sum up; a different joystick other than my MSFFB2 worked for me. The G940 completely got rid of that TrackIR stuttering. Of course, it isn't a perfect solution and only a workaround, but if that info helps relieve someone else's frustration for a while, then you're welcome, no problem. It's just what worked for me, so if it doesn't for you, I can't be held responsible.

While it would be nice to know what the cause of the stuttering is, I'm not going to spend any more time worrying about it. I'll leave that for the devs to worry about (who I hope will be getting my money soon when I can finally buy RoF:ICE in England! Hurry up Aerosoft!!) At least, I'm having a blast with Over Flanders Fields at the moment so I don't mind waiting. :D

PS: I think, I'm not the only one here thinking that this TrackIR-stutter specific issue might deserve a thread of its own now (if there isn't one already?) to prevent confusion for others? Perhaps Dr Glow or someone would like to do this to maybe give the issue more 'publicity'? Good luck my friend, Dr Glow, Ming, W1ndy and all thanks for all your helpful input. Take it easy and stay in the sun.

EDIT: Forget what I said about buying a cheapo test joystick, sorry I was just thinking out loud… I doubt a cheapo one would also have 'Force Feedback'… :facepalm:
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#110 BroadSide

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 17:57

Well done Ziggy!
I'm not sure where else we can go with this issue, to be honest.
Glad you got FFB working (albeit with a new stick), and I've heard great things about the G940.
Looking forward to seeing you in the skies over flanders! (you cant' miss me, I'm the only flying barn!)

As for the rest, I'm happy to do some tests, but I have no issues currently, or have had any in the past, regardless of OS….so I'm not sure how I can help out.
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#111 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 19:27

I then changed the M$FFB2 joystick over for a G940 flight system (with Force Feedback still on, same as before). Finally, the TrackIR stutter was gone. The only thing different in all my final tests was the joystick. FFB was on at all times. I switched over sticks with the MSFFB2 joystick again just to make sure. TrackIR Stutter returned. I finally tried the G940 again. Smoothness all the way, no stuttering

Comprehensive test report, case proved ('the only thing different') by substitution testing.

Rarely can we make this type of critical and revealing test, we love our sticks :)

Thanks very much Ziggy!

Ming
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#112 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:59

Thanks so much Ziggy, you are truly a scholar and a gentlemen. Even if your not, I say you are :P
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#113 W1ndy

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:51

Thanks for all that Ziggy. I feel a bit the same, it's time to let it rest for a while.

Maybe the code will change in patch, or a solution may come to light randomly. We tried
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#114 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:30

After all this I would hate to just let it go, Id like to post a link to this thread but I dont know if i should. Here is what happened the last time this topic got some publicity ( TrackIR/FFB - Still got stuttering… )

I don't want this thread to get locked just in case some one dose come up with something
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#115 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:33

I don't want this thread to get locked just in case some one dose come up with something

You can maybe add these tips and test reports to the Rise of Flight Wiki and Support FAQ?

Ming
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#116 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 02:36

You can maybe add these tips and test reports to the Rise of Flight Wiki and Support FAQ?
Good idea Ming. I will go and poke around Wiki and see if I can figure out how to add some things when I get a few spare minuets, but right now I desperately need to fly I think I going through withdraws :lol:
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#117 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:00

I think I going through withdraws

And this is before we get the juicy update :) (see Jason and Loft's SimHQ Interview)

Ming
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#118 W1ndy

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 21:44

Juicey update looks so good, and from the recent interview, it seems there is still plenty of focus on the code, and improving performance.

So a fix to this issue might come , on purpose or inadvertently by the devs.
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#119 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 03:20

Juicey update looks so good, and from the recent interview, it seems there is still plenty of focus on the code, and improving performance.

So a fix to this issue might come , on purpose or inadvertently by the devs.
Any way we can get it we will take it.
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#120 MrGeek

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 21:07

I have a very old Sidewinder Precision 2 joy and runs great under Win 7 64. So far works for ROF.
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