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windows 7 and MS Sidewinder FF2


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#1 BroadSide

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:24

Is there any issues with the MS Sidewinder FF2 and windows 7?

Assuming the stick works, are there any issues with the Force Feedback?

Thanks!
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#2 hq_Reflected

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:37

For me:

Win 7 32 + MS FFB2 + TrackIR4 + dual core = stutters
win 7 64 + MS FFB2 + TrackIR4 + dual core = smooth gameplay
win 7 64 + MS FFB2 + TrackIR4 + dual core + 1.012 = stutters
win 7 64 + MS FFB2 + TrackIR4 + quad core + 1.012 = smooth gameplay

good luck ;)
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#3 hq_Jorri

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:39

Never had a problem :)
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#4 W1ndy

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 08:25

I get stutters ; win 7 64 , FFB2 , Quad core , TrackIR4 (software-5), 1.012 , ATI CCC 10.3

I wish I didn't
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#5 BroadSide

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 16:57

This is the last big hurdle for me…
My specs are in my sig, but will have win7 64 bit, 6gb of RAM on an I7 920 at 3.0 (or 3.3 depending on if I OC it a little more).
I have an opportunity to buy another (mostly unused) MS FF2 stick for $50 locally, but am anxious about the "stutters". I've never experienced this with RoF, even though I use Force feedback and have since day 1 of RoF.

anyone with an i7 using the FF2 stick?



The only stutter-like occurance that I've seen is when I zoom in and out after just starting the plane, or when other planes are near, there is a slight pause, sometimes a second or two long, then it flows smoothly.

I'm assuming "stutters" are like an old movie that gives you sporadic frame rates and kind of misses a frame between frames?

-edit-
I also have TrackIR 5, with latest software, if that makes a difference.

BTW, THANKS for all the replies everyone! (it's such a great community here!)
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#6 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 19:13

No problems here for info ReadyMan, it's very well implemented

There are two types of this stick, check the label underneath for the code

Mine is Part No. X05-92622

Ming
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#7 W1ndy

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:28

Never had a problem :)

Jorri and Ming, do you guys use the software for the stick, or just win 7 game controllers manager ?
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#8 BroadSide

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:48

The software doesnt work. It stopped working with Win98. I searched the net and only found that one reality: you cant readjust the FF settings as there is NO program that will do it for you (there was a semi work around, but it was flaky if I recall correctly).
I read a post recently that the software still doesnt work with win7
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#9 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:51

Win7 handles my stick using its native drivers W1ndy

ForceEdit is around for tweaking Il-2 FF dot-ffe files on older systems (16bit software is now not available under Vista and onwards)

Anything not working in general, try the Compatibility options, right-click on the executable that calls the application

RoF handles both FF and TIR under Win7 x64 for me with no problems. Famous last words yes :)

Ming
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#10 W1ndy

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 09:02

I'm using the native drivers too. I wonder what I'm doing wrong to get the stutters
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#11 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 02:31

The only way Im stutter free is to turn FFB off

Win7 64 bit Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core. I also had a Quad core Q6600 same thing :roll:
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#12 BroadSide

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 03:33

The only way Im stutter free is to turn FFB off

Win7 64 bit Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core. I also had a Quad core Q6600 same thing :roll:

Well, that's discouraging. How odd that it would work for one i7 and not another…
The only difference between our systems will be my 920 and your 930.
There are 2 different types of MS FF2 sticks…maybe that is the difference. I honestly cant imagine playing RoF w/o FF :(
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#13 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 09:31

What motherboard are you on Readyman?

Have you perhaps installed (and perhaps unwisely installed) motherboard drivers rather than allow Windows (any version) to handle the motherboard under its native drivers?

We're grasping at straws without more info on your system which looks very good and like mine - sorry mate

Latest compatible BIOS updated?

I used the word 'compatible' because I've had to downgrade my BIOS on a couple of machines after updating to the latest BIOS brought on unexpected problems, usually connected with card slots

Run Rise of Flight in a tiny window at the very lowest graphics settings as a test to see if you can isolate a bottleneck, if smooth-running in that mode then crank up the window-load a little at a time until the stutters reappear

Try making sure your graphics card is well-seated, and if you have another free slot for your graphics card, try that slot. Change things around, see if some common factor pops its head up

Unplug or disable any device you do not need to run Rise of Flight, especially USB hardware hanging off sockets at the back of your machine

Make sure you plug both TIR and the stick into dedicated motherboard USB sockets

Do not be using powered or unpowered USB hubs…

There's a known problem of USB hubs not being capable of powering TIR or stick hardware (USB sockets must supply 500mA maximum power drain and TIR5 itself gets rather warm in use)

Always use an anti-static wriststrap if you're messing about with your motherboard dear reader.

I do not need to tell you that Readyman I know, but for others passing by later perhaps, and following the investigation, important reminder

Ming
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#14 BroadSide

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 17:05

The only way Im stutter free is to turn FFB off

Win7 64 bit Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core. I also had a Quad core Q6600 same thing :roll:

I'm curious:
Did you try using the "XP mode" that comes with Windows 7? That might fix your FF/stutter problems. That will be the first thing I try if I get stutters with my FF.
FF is too important to do without…
There is also a "Virtual Box" or VM option for running XP.
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#15 BroadSide

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 17:10

What motherboard are you on Readyman?

Have you perhaps installed (and perhaps unwisely installed) motherboard drivers rather than allow Windows (any version) to handle the motherboard under its native drivers?


Ming


Thanks for the ideas Ming!

First thing:
I havent installed Windows 7 yet…waiting on my new HD from Amazon.com.
When I do, I hope I wont have any issues, as I dont have any issues at all in XP right now.

I think all my specs are in my sig, but I'm running an Asus P6T motherboard. I dont recall installing the mb drivers, but I usually do, and I have a bunch of Asus monitoring programs loaded, so I must have installed them when I did this upgrade a year ago.
But as I stated, I have no stutters at the moment.

I am trying to decide if there will be any issues with win7, but of course I can only think of so much, and it's all uncertain at this point until I put the new HD and OS in my machine.

As I stated to Dr. Glow, though, I imagine that I can use XP mode to overcome stutters…
That or a dual boot (or I'll just leave my XP HD in the case and boot to it when I start up…tho I dont want to do that unless it's necessary).
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#16 W1ndy

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 20:59

The only way Im stutter free is to turn FFB off

Win7 64 bit Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core. I also had a Quad core Q6600 same thing :roll:

DrGlow, what vid card and drivers are you using ?
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#17 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 17:55

Hi Ill start from the beginning. First computer was quad Q6600 and vid card nvidia 8800 tried everything on the forums but no luck, so i put a new vid card GTX280 the Sim ran great as long as I did not enable the FFB. I saved some cash and built a new putter Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core with the GTX280 vid card it runs as smooth as silk but still no luck with FFB turned on.
I tried xp compatibility mode that was a no go, also the first computers OS was XP pro and I was still getting stutters, Iv spent a lot of money to try to get the FFB working because I am deaf and it is a big disadvantage with out the feel of things for instance like a stall, I know most can hear a stall coming on but it doesn't work that way for me its the same thing for takeoffs and landings and so forth and so on.
Iv also tried 3 different MS FFB2 sticks, I can only pray for a fix one day .I have read this is not an uncommon problem and most have resorted to just turning off FFB. IM still willing to try something new if there is something that I haven't tried
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#18 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 19:07

I saved some cash and built a new putter Intel Core i7 930 Quad-Core with the GTX280 vid card it runs as smooth as silk but still no luck with FFB turned on.

What operating system are you currently running Glow? It was XP Pro we know that much but- :)

I tried xp compatibility mode that was a no go… still getting stutters

Is the stick plugged directly into the motherboard? Compatibility mode and also in Admin mode under Win7 btw

Iv also tried 3 different MS FFB2 sticks, I can only pray for a fix one day

You can see above that some of us are running that stick with no stutters, so you should try to split the problem into pieces

Does FF work normally in other games? No stutters anywhere else?

Hard to tell what's causing the stutters without eliminating some suspects. To find out if the stick is causing stutters, try another stick and/or another USB port. It is a USB stick is it? I think there was an earlier gameport-connection stick and that one will not work under later operating systems. If you unplug the stick can you fly by using the keyboard?

Are you running TIR? (USB hardware)

Sympathy mate I have Meniere's syndrome so I'm a bit deaf in one ear and with major tinnitus, labyrinthitis, falling over without having had a drink as compensation :), I run radio-frequency cordless headphones

Let us know what operating system you're running and perhaps what motherboard is in there if you know that

Sorry for papers, papers questioning :)

(It's a Win7 thread yes but I'd better check you're actually on Win7, good technicians never assume anything)

Ming
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#19 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 01:08

Sorry ReadyMan I did not mean to hijack but this should be of interest to you also.
Thanks Ming I'm running Win7 64 bit.

Is the stick plugged directly into the motherboard? Yes its a USB stick

Does FF work normally in other games? No stutters anywhere else? Yes I have several Sim's and it works flawless

Hard to tell what's causing the stutters without eliminating some suspects. To find out if the stick is causing stutters, try another stick and/or another USB port. Iv tried 2 other sticks and different Usb ports

Are you running TIR? (USB hardware) Yes its TIR 5 and latest software

Let us know what operating system you're running and perhaps what motherboard is in there if you know that The motherboard is a Gigabyte X58A-UD3R.Funny thing is I had the same problem with my first computer a Q6600 quad and nvidia 8800 video card

Sympathy mate I have Meniere's syndrome so I'm a bit deaf in one ear and with major tinnitus, labyrinthitis, falling over without having had a drink as compensation Boy I know what you mean there. My equilibrium gos for a turd when the wind blows in my ears. If I ride my bike I have to put cotton in my ears or Ill fall off :lol: talk about a cheep buzz :D
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#20 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 14:32

talk about a cheep buzz

Ok. A cheap buzz is what I get from whatever it is I'm drinking at the moment. It's ok I can just about make out the kejboard :)

Ming
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#21 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:23

Here is another thing we can eliminate. Out of my 4 MS FFB2 sticks I noticed one of them has a red colored trigger, but some buttons don't work otherwise its fine, on the off chance its a newer or older model and a possibility that is the reason some sticks work and some don't I thought I give it a try, unfortunately no luck. Well it was worth a try :cry:
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#22 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 23:56

Part number should be on the bottom Glow

Grey trigger here

Ming
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#23 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 03:08

I look at them tomorrow and see what part # they are thanks
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#24 Morgenrot

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:42

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything but seeing as I have the TrackIR stutters too I thought I may as well add I'm in the BSS_DrGlow club! I feel your pain my friend!

Specs: Win7 x64, i7 @ 4.0GHz, 1.3KW PSU, 6GB DDR3, TrackIR 4 + TrackClip Pro (software v.5.0.300 build 6225), Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 (part Number = X08-58736, PID No. 52861-579-0453691-00000), blood-red transparent trigger.

In RoF (demo! I want to buy RoF:ICE soon if possible outside North America?)…

TrackIR on + FFB off = no stutter.

TrackIR off + FFB on = no stutter.

TrackIR on + FFB on = stutter.

The stutter is technically "playable", but the amount it does it just hurts my eyes too much to bear. At the moment (until I get a new joystick) I think the lesser of two weevils is to play with TrackIR off… I am not deaf like BSS_DrGlow, but I think FFB is necessary for everyone to "feel" the struts, wires and canvas of flying WWI aircraft. But then again, someone once said "loose sight, loose the fight"…

A shame it looks like we need to buy a new joystick just for RoF. Like others have said, the Track IR / MSFFB2 combo works fine in BoBII, BlackShark, IL-2 etc…

So, what joystick do the programmers use / recommend? Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or anything, I just want to fly RoF like the designers intended! Thanks guys for making a beautiful sim! So, new joystick suggestions please? :)
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#25 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 09:46

A shame it looks like we need to buy a new joystick just for RoF. Like others have said, the Track IR / MSFFB2 combo works fine in BoBII, BlackShark, IL-2 etc…

That combination works for some of us in RoF too, I run TIR5 and an MSFFB2 stick with no stutters

If it's an RoF thing, why does the combination work for some people in RoF?

If it's an RoF thing everyone with that hardware combination should be in the same boat, but we're not it's very odd

Ming
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#26 BroadSide

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 16:54

Have you tried turning off applications running the background? Someone recently mentioned stutter issues when Aero was running, but that the they stopped when he turned this off during his flights.
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#27 Morgenrot

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 19:03

A shame it looks like we need to buy a new joystick just for RoF. Like others have said, the Track IR / MSFFB2 combo works fine in BoBII, BlackShark, IL-2 etc…

That combination works for some of us in RoF too, I run TIR5 and an MSFFB2 stick with no stutters

If it's an RoF thing, why does the combination work for some people in RoF?

If it's an RoF thing everyone with that hardware combination should be in the same boat, but we're not it's very odd

Ming

Yes Ming you're right, strange indeed old chap!

Oops, forgot to mention the rest of my specs… well I have a very similar rig to you Ming my old boy! Same motherboard and memory, same GTX 285 card… hm one thing I have different is I'm using my old Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard in it… not that the onboard Realtek one isn't any good of course… I just like it for older games compatibility with my dual-boot XP. Possibly there's a conflict there.. oh well hopefully one day it'll get narrowed down but not to worry if all the stutterer sufferers out there need is a new stick; I've been meaning to get a new one anyway so it's all spanking good!

Have you tried turning off applications running the background? Someone recently mentioned stutter issues when Aero was running, but that the they stopped when he turned this off during his flights.

Thanks awfully for the help old bean! Well I must say I've never even tried running Aero on with my RoF demo… had it turned off from the get-go by setting my demo RoF.exe compatibility to not use desktop composition. Oh and I also tried playing RoF with my dual-boot XP (32 bit) and the TrackIR stutter-pan is exactly the same, so my guess would be it's probably a hardware related problemette.

Like some others mentioned, it's not the fps or performance of the game that's the issue (solid 60fps for me in both Win7x64 and XP 32), but the "tracking" and panning stutter with TrackIR. :)

Well after all that it looks like I won't actually be buying RoF in the foreseeable future until RoF:ICE is available to buy in England anyway! All a bit of a moot point my old muckers! Hopefully Aerosoft will start shipping it at some point in the future… in the meantime I'll just have to "stick" with Over Flanders Fields and Red Baron 3D! :D

Thanks again chaps, if and when I get the old RoF kite up I'll look out for you in the Sun! Cheers!
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"the killer skies will get us all" -Hans von Hammer


#28 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:30

Have you tried turning off applications running the background? Someone recently mentioned stutter issues when Aero was running, but that the they stopped when he turned this off during his flights.

I read the same post and turned off Aero but no luck . Still looking for the answer
Thanks for your interest Sawdust
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#29 BroadSide

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 22:12

Just finished my upgrade to win7 and just wanted to report that I have NO stutters in sp or mp.
I tried to follow all the advice posted here (new install, installed to game/rof, using admin mode, enabled admin mode for rof from the shortcut, newest version of trackir (5).

The game runs faster, and I have probably 15 more fps at least, even tho I down clocked to 3.0 instead of 3.3 (3.0 seems to be much more stable, and only the very infrequent "your overclock has failed" message.).

Hope this thread helped someone. Thanks for all the replies!
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#30 W1ndy

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:13

I tried to follow all the advice posted here (new install, installed to game/rof, ).

!

What's that second one ? installed to game/rof ?

I installed to my D drive, away from the C drive which has the OS. Is that right?. Did I miss something (still have stutters)
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#31 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 11:25

Don't forget to look at your hard drives access LED when you see stuttering

If you see that LED flickering when you see stuttering, you may be experiencing stuttering because your hard drives are being used as 'virtual memory' or maybe a pagefile problem

Sit so you can see the screen and that LED at the same time, if the stuttering coincides with the drives-access LED flickering please report that suspicious activity in the thread

Ming
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#32 W1ndy

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 02:39

Ming, can you elaborate a bit on the HD access LED. I don't know what that is yet. I'm keen to get to the bottom of this one.
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#33 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 12:11

On the front of your computer case are a couple of LEDs W1ndy. One tells you when you've hit the ON switch and it stays on steadily when the computer's running

The other LED will start flickering when you hit the ON button, and you maybe hear the drive activity as the LED is flickering. When the desktop appears the LED slows down and will be unlit (mostly) when nothing is happening

As the RoF mission-loading screen is in progress (with the red progress-bar moving right to indicate how much of the mission is loaded) you should see that LED flickering (it may look to be lit steadily at times)

Now all the code has been taken from the hard drive(s) and is in memory and RoF is not accessing the hard drive any more, the LED goes out. But if memory is tight, RoF (and any other application loaded) will use the hard drive as a form of 'memory', 'virtual memory' if needed because system memory is full

Trouble is, using a hard drive like this as memory-space means that access times (to data) are huge compared to RAM access. This means that graphics operations can be interrupted (hardware can tell software to wait until operations are completed) and the picture onscreen can begin to stutter

I was trying to elicit whether users are meaning that their 'stuttering' means 'occasional periods of jerkiness' onscreen, usually associated with intensive screen-content (lots of AI planes in the picture for example) or whether 'stuttering' means 'a steady chugging that lasts for the whole mission'

Steady rhythmic chugging would probably be a graphics-bottleneck thing, whereas occasional 'burps' to the picture would more likely be associated with system-wide problems: hard drive access, background applications grabbing CPU-time etc

Therefore, look for the LED (light) that's flickering as you boot up your machine, that's the indicator that your hard drive(s) is being accessed as Windows loads into system memory from your boot drive. All drives use the same activity LED

If you've built your system by hand of course, you may not have connected the front-case-LED indicating drives activity to the motherboard. Trying to cover 'No LEDs connected here, I run commando-mode!' all cases :)

Ming
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#34 W1ndy

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 12:35

OK . The HD LED pulses steadily all the time. I watched carefully when loading into RoF ,a nd it flickered a bit, but when in game, in a FF/TrackIR situation, it continued to pulse steadily ,with an interval of about 0.75 seconds.

It didn't look like it was working overtime. It's plusing the same now as I forum.

Backgorund tasks, I use task manager to check on that stuff, and game booster every time before playing to knockout background tasks.

The game runs smooth with good FPS, around 50 , and when the trackIR stutters, the FPS remain high , so I don't see that it's a bottleneck/ performance issue.

The stuttering seems to have nothing to do with on screen activity. It happens when I'm flying alone.

It is when I pan, the pan is not smooth, it is broken up into twenty or so chunks. It sort of sticks instead of panning smooth.Quite a regular thing. FF off, smooth as.

Also with FF on, but "level pilot" activated, there is no stutter. I can pan around smooth. Deactivate level pilot, requiring the FF effect, and stutter returns. It really seems like a driver incompatibility . Layman's guess.

I removed pedals, turned off AERO, neither worked. I don't mind too much because Ive gotten used to no FF. Others would appreciate the solution though so I'm up for keeping going with any testing.

I'm thinking now to reinstall as Readyman did, if i can get instructions on what to do differently. See post above.

Does it sound like I need a new HD? It's about 2 years old. Or maybe it's the RAM DDR2 800..

Not a lot to go on inspector
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#35 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 12:40

It didn't look like it was working overtime. It's plusing the same now as I forum.

Mine isn't.

Just thought I'd mention it :)

Ming
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#36 BroadSide

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 19:11

I dont think you should have your HD light flickering constantly while playing. That doesnt seem right, tho it doesnt mean that it's RoF's issue either. I'd guess it's background applications that are running.
The first thing I'd do before any upgrade is to quit everything that's running in the background, except what is absolutely needed.
There is a program just for flight sims that does this automatically…I forget what it's called…and cant find the link atm. Anyways, it goes thru and pauses all programs that are not needed to run the sim, so that you have complete access to your system when flying.

HTH
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#37 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 23:37

I dont think you should have your HD light flickering constantly while playing. That doesnt seem right

I just said that but with a full nine-paragraph technical explanation :)

Ming
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#38 W1ndy

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 06:48

:lol: So a flickering HD LED is a bad thing. Hm, that sounds like all the excuse I need to spend more money on Hardware !!! Spinpoint F3 here I come .

(still researching the F3 or Caviar Black toss up)

I should wait for that background killer link though. I hope it materializes Readyman … :geek:

Second option, I've seen another MSSWFF2 for sale for $30 online. It might be a non-stutter.
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#39 WW1EAF_Ming

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 09:05

Don't forget W1ndy, you make make changes to something or many things and then find that nothing has changed, please bear that in mind

You didn't say whether you're experiencing burping or juddering

Burping = mainly a smooth picture but sometimes there's a slowdown to framerate, the picture recovers and becomes smooth again for a while

Chugging = rhythmic stuttering like a machine gun, all the time you're in the 3D world

You can look at your Startup folder if you have one. In there you may find lots of programs listed, all of them (of the ones that are ticked, enabled) will be loaded automatically each time Windows loads. In that panel you can disable whichever programs you do not need to be running when you play RoF, re-enable them if no difference, some of them may be important to smooth running of your machine. Btw I just found 4 sneaky programs (Adobe bloatware) starting up here in work that I did not order, thanks :)

You can also run the msconfig utility from Start/Run, type msconfig in the entry field. Go to the Startup tab and disable (maybe only temporarily) programs/applications you do not strictly need to be running when playing RoF

It's important that you make a Restore Point now. No don't go out for a paper do it now :)

(then you should be able to get back to where you are now if you break something when tweaking your system, make sure the Restore Point function is actually enabled)

You are defragmenting your drives regularly I hope, and not trying to run Windows on a drive with low drive space? Sorry, had to ask, I can't know anything about your doings that you haven't mentioned :)

Ming
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#40 W1ndy

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 09:19

I appreciate the input Ming, really.

My machine is reasonably clean, but I will clean it out even more. I defrag regularly and look for background apps as a matter of course. I don't like them either. I'll be very rigorous to see if any of them have an effect. I may even re-format.

Chugging or burping. Neither description sounds quite right.

Chugging sounds the closest because it's a steady sticking when panning. Like a reluctance to move. The faster you try to pan, the longer it sticks, although it never sticks for more than a milli-second. Panning slowly you hardly notice it - panning quickly it judders across the screen. "All the time in 3d world "? No. only when I move my view. It is a view problem only - TrackIR only.

Burping ,no. Time doesn't seem to hic-cup . I've had that earlier before I upgraded.

Rof Is sitting in my D drive with no other program at all. 100G of space to play in.

If I do re-format, are there any key instructions for installing RoF that might help ?

BTW I did put this rig together, so I might check the connection for the HD LED. It might just be that. I'm not at my game PC to do it now.
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